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Author Topic: Litter sizes, average offspring, and other birthing suggestions  (Read 3821 times)

Roses

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Litter sizes, average offspring, and other birthing suggestions
« on: September 04, 2011, 03:00:30 pm »

It would be nice if we could specify an average number of offspring along with a range.

For instance, some animals can have 1 to 6 kids with an average of 2 or 1 to 6 with an average of 3 etc...

EDIT: Other suggestions mentioned in this thread.

-A species specific infant mortality rate
-A species specific birthing death rate (for the mother)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 08:06:09 pm by Roses »
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Bohandas

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Re: Litter sizes and average offspring
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2011, 09:02:43 pm »

Seconded.
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Leonance

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Re: Litter sizes and average offspring
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2011, 09:55:01 pm »

The tag for creatures [LITTER_SIZE:X:Y] handles this already doesn't it? (X = smallest amount; Y = largest possible amount)
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Bohandas

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Re: Litter sizes and average offspring
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2011, 10:13:14 pm »

The tag for creatures [LITTER_SIZE:X:Y] handles this already doesn't it? (X = smallest amount; Y = largest possible amount)

The OP acknowledged that. The request was for a third variable to set an average litter size other than the midpoint between minimum and maximum.
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IT 000

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Re: Litter sizes and average offspring
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2011, 10:35:06 pm »

What would the point be of having an average? Creatures don't have an 'average' in real life. There is no set 'average'.
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Cthulhu Inc

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Re: Litter sizes and average offspring
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2011, 10:32:34 am »

What would the point be of having an average? Creatures don't have an 'average' in real life. There is no set 'average'.

Humans IRL usually have 1 child, with the chance of multiple birth decreasing as as it goes higher and higher. Not stdied enough to know about any averages for other animals.
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IT 000

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Re: Litter sizes and average offspring
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2011, 10:36:59 am »

We already have a tag for that [MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE] (or something like that)

Other animals have a range of the number of infants they can give birth to. Dogs for example, give birth to around 5-8, five is considered the 'average' as much as eight is. The game already mimics this by having a range stated in the tag Leonance pointed out.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Litter sizes and average offspring
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2011, 11:18:06 am »

We already have a tag for that [MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE] (or something like that)

Other animals have a range of the number of infants they can give birth to. Dogs for example, give birth to around 5-8, five is considered the 'average' as much as eight is. The game already mimics this by having a range stated in the tag Leonance pointed out.
For instance, some animals can have 1 to 6 kids with an average of 2 or 1 to 6 with an average of 3 etc...
Think about that.

-----

That said, it is a good idea...except that it would likely require rewriting EVERY mod. Not worth enough for the hassle.
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Bohandas

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Re: Litter sizes and average offspring
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2011, 11:30:56 am »

That said, it is a good idea...except that it would likely require rewriting EVERY mod. Not worth enough for the hassle.

Maybe it could default to an even distribution or to however litter size is determined now if an average is not specified.
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IT 000

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Re: Litter sizes and average offspring
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2011, 11:34:45 am »

We already have a tag for that [MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE] (or something like that)

Other animals have a range of the number of infants they can give birth to. Dogs for example, give birth to around 5-8, five is considered the 'average' as much as eight is. The game already mimics this by having a range stated in the tag Leonance pointed out.
For instance, some animals can have 1 to 6 kids with an average of 2 or 1 to 6 with an average of 3 etc...
Think about that.
I'd like to see one creature in real life (who normally has multiple offsprings) that operates this way. To my knowledge every creature that does so will lay between x and y babies.
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Starver

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Re: Litter sizes and average offspring
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2011, 12:36:23 pm »

Yes, between X and Y, but the OP is suggesting that there be a way to skew the distribution, AIUI.

Unless Toady already has a fixed skew mechanism in place (e.g. 'normal' distribution/bell-curve centred on the range's midpoint) as it is now[1] if a creature has "between 1 and 10 babies, then (say) 30 creatures breeding will tend to distribute their offspring numbers as 3 creatures each.  The more breeding creatures, the flatter the distribution (or more bell-like, if that applies), of course, but it'll be random and luck-based whether two (or one, or none) birthings give exactly two offspring and perhaps the "three offspring" cohort takes up the slack.  Or the 10-offspring one.

But there'd be good reason to allow up to 10 offspring, but skew it so that pairs are what comes out on average (by mean, median or mode... take your pick according to which measure you prefer).  Or, conversely, while as few as a single offspring is possible, usually there's about 8 or 9 of the blighters.  Different creatures have different reasons to have different outliers, even with the same absolute range[2].  Perhaps harder for the modder to understand the effects, of course, than "I'll say from 3 to 23, which means it averages out at a baker's dozen of Lesser Spotted Puzuma kits".  Unless it defaults sensibly when you miss out the peak-point.

So if we have (with a slightly different tag, to make the old tag still available) [LITTER_RANGE:3:23:] is equivalent to [LITTER_RANGE:3:23:13] is probably equivalent to the traditional [LITTER_SIZE:3:23] but [LITTER_RANGE:3:23:5] means the high potential still has a low average and [LITTER_RANGE:3:23:17] means it could still be as low (within the same range as the former examples), but usually it's fairly high.

I know someone will point out that there's more to the curve than the positioning of the peak, e.g. the sharpness of it, but that could be encompassed as well.  [MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE] could still be useful (forcing a single offspring, or perhaps the lowest number in the given range) but when the "common" situation does not apply the rarer one can be skewed left, right or centre...

e.g. if modding dwarfs accordingly, when Urist McWife doesn't produce the usual single sprog, she's actually most likely to get quintruplets...  I could easily see that modded in by the player to make for nice surprises for the player (not to mention the mother herself).



[1] And ignoring [MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE] as an already existing skew towards the 1 offspring, regardless of the range

[2] Actually, I'd go the whole hog and go for a mathematical description of the curve, affecting where the curve is centred and how it is skewed and how flat/precipitous that skew might be.  If that was augmented by a limit of physical impossibility (e.g. a cap applied so that the one in a million chance arising out of the maths concerned that 20 offspring were produced from a nominally 5-6 offspring creature was reduced to 10), and naturally if the equation popped out a value lower than zero then it would be zero itself, i.e. a failed pregnancy), then we could even give the creatures heritable traits for marginally larger/smaller litters than their (but significantly larger litters linked to smaller/weaker individuals, as a natural balance) as well as environmental effects (pregnant creature that is hungry for a key part of their pregnancy has a further reduced litter size[3]).  But that'd take more maths and calculations.  Not sure if it's in Toady's vision.

[3] For now, ignoring the actual real-world situation that women whose mothers suffered starvation during pregnancy can be seen to have smaller children themselves (i.e. the grandchildren of the ones who suffered).
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FallingWhale

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Re: Litter sizes and average offspring
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2011, 01:00:42 pm »

I'd like to see one creature in real life (who normally has multiple offsprings) that operates this way. To my knowledge every creature that does so will lay between x and y babies.
Nine-banded armadillos almost always have quadruplets but they can have 3-6.
I think this is good polish and not much else.
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Roses

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Re: Litter sizes and average offspring
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2011, 12:26:37 pm »

As FallingWhale said, some creatures CAN have wildly varying litter sizes, but they usually have an average number that isn't always a gaussian distribution. As another example, there are species of weasels that can have between 1 and 18 children in a litter, but they usually (as in over 50% of the time, probably closer to 75 or 80) have only 4.

As an added suggestion, it would also be nice to have an infant mortality rate of some kind. Following my example above while they may have a large number of children, only about 30% of them will live to be 1. This would help stop certain animal populations from exploding, but would also give a more realistic feel.
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Bohandas

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Re: Litter sizes and average offspring
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2011, 02:20:53 pm »

As an added suggestion, it would also be nice to have an infant mortality rate of some kind. Following my example above while they may have a large number of children, only about 30% of them will live to be 1. This would help stop certain animal populations from exploding, but would also give a more realistic feel.

A very good idea!

Also, the mortality rate should be set seperately in each species in the raws.
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peskyninja

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Re: Litter sizes and average offspring
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2011, 02:30:40 pm »

Some species children could kill eachother so only 1 remains,like the eagles do and some species of shark even before they're born!
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