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[ulan]

In my last fortress I only had one single available metal, gold, and after handling that fortress for a while I got the idea for my next fortress as that fort was beeing brought down in a tidal wave of fun. Why not make an all out stone age fort, and do not use any metal at all? Seems doable, just sell out any ore to whatever traders there are, but I needed to clear up a few questions of mine
Untill I found out there wasnt any obsidian swords in the arena testing thing, so it is a bit hard to get proper answers

What is the most effective armor outside of any metal use?
-Are leather shields any use at all compared to wooden ones
-How effective are turtle shell helms/gauntlet/greaves vs their leather counterparts
-Is the wooden armor (at least the helms/gauntlet/greaves that Ive seen) that you can buy off the elves any use?
Whats the most effective weapon(s) barring any metals?
-Obsidian sword vs Dual Wielding shield user vs obsidian sword/shield (what'd be the best melee)
-Or would the wooden practice weapons hold up lol
-Would a crossbow force be more effective anyway
-How many stone age swordwarves(or whatever else is the most effective) would it take to take down a iron armored goblin and is that ratio stable with more and more goblins
-How proficient would a stone age swordwarf(or whatever else is the most effective) have to be to take down an iron armored goblin in 1:1
-If fighting something that is armored with leather, would it change what is the most effective weapon?

[acetech09]

I've never used obsidian weapons, can't tell you their effectiveness.

By looking at raws, seems wood is a more superior material to leather - I advise using glumprong for wooden shields.

When dwarves wielding glumprong shields and glumprong training swords go into combat, I saw that they always ended up striking with their shield, they never really used their training swords at all.

To answer your stone age vs medieval question, do some of your own arena !!Science!! using the woods that will be available on your embark.

EDIT:
Just saw your crossbow question - That's what I'd suggest. Glumprong crossbows & maybe some dual-shield glumprong warriors + wrestlers would be a pretty efficient force.

oh, and since your military won't be the most effective:
Traps. LOTS of traps. Spike traps. Spears. Wooden pointy things.

[MagmaMcFry]

When I saw the topic title, I thought of something along the lines of "no tea".

[ulan]

Cool ace, but do you have any idea regarding the turtle/wood armor thing

I cannot find any obsidian swords in the arena, or any turtle shell armor :|

[acetech09]

Perhaps edit the raws to make a metal with the same physical properties as obsidian/shell.

EDIT:

Ok - I made a metal with the same properties as obsidian has the rest of the tags from iron:

Spoiler: Metal_Obby (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

[INORGANIC:OBBY]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:METAL_TEMPLATE]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:metal_obby]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:LIQUID:molten metal_obby]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:GAS:!!HOLY CRAP!!]
[DISPLAY_COLOR:0:7:1]
[MATERIAL_VALUE:10]
[SPEC_HEAT:450]
[MELTING_POINT:13600]
[BOILING_POINT:16000]
[ITEMS_WEAPON][ITEMS_WEAPON_RANGED][ITEMS_AMMO][ITEMS_DIGGER][ITEMS_ARMOR][ITEMS_ANVIL]
[ITEMS_HARD]
[ITEMS_METAL]
[ITEMS_BARRED]
[ITEMS_SCALED]
[SOLID_DENSITY:2670]
[LIQUID_DENSITY:3300]
[MOLAR_MASS:36000]
[IMPACT_YIELD:120000]
[IMPACT_FRACTURE:120000]
[IMPACT_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:100]
[COMPRESSIVE_YIELD:120000]
[COMPRESSIVE_FRACTURE:120000]
[COMPRESSIVE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:100]
[TENSILE_YIELD:15000]
[TENSILE_FRACTURE:15000]
[TENSILE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:100]
[TORSION_YIELD:15000]
[TORSION_FRACTURE:15000]
[TORSION_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:100]
[SHEAR_YIELD:15000]
[SHEAR_FRACTURE:310000]
[SHEAR_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:100]
[BENDING_YIELD:15000]
[BENDING_FRACTURE:15000]
[BENDING_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:100]
[MAX_EDGE:20000]

[Greiger]

Using custom reaction made bone armor in adventure mode seemed to do little to nothing to protect against real weapons, but served adequately against animal claws and teeth.  And since shell shares most if not all the values from bone I imagine that would be the same deal.

P.S. Also it did damn near nothing against bashing attacks.  But even real armor has a hard time against that.

[acetech09]

Ok. Will be posting test results here - will edit my post. I'm testing against fully bronze-clad goblins, which is not a realistic scenario, but is a middle ground between copper and iron, it's sort of an average.

Spoiler: Wood/Obsidian Dwarves vs Bronze Goblins (click to show/hide)

10 maple-clad dwarves with metal_obby short swords + glumprong shields
vs.
10 bronze-clad dwarves with bronze short swords + bronze shields


Dwarves got slaughtered. One goblin dead, the rest have no large injuries. All 10 dwarves died quickly.

Spoiler: 2xWood/Obsidian Dwarves vs Bronze Goblins (click to show/hide)

20 maple-clad dwarves with metal_obby short swords + glumprong shields
vs.
10 bronze-clad dwarves with bronze short swords + bronze shields


Dwarves still got slaughtered. Two goblins dead, the rest have no large injuries. All 20 dwarves died quickly.

From those tests it seemed that the obsidian swords were doing at most some bruises, occasionally clipping teeth and fingers, while the goblins were happily lopping heads and limbs off with ease.

Spoiler: 10 Adequate Maple/Obby Swordsdwarves vs. 10 Novice Bronze Goblins (click to show/hide)

10 Dwarves with all adequate combat skills, maple armor and obsidian swords, glumprong shields
vs
10 Bronze-clad goblins with all novice combat skills

Dwarves still lost, but put up a lot better fight. 3 goblins died, the rest with heavier injuries. Incoming damage seemed the same, but the more skilled dwarves were able to score a few more headstabs and limb-cuts before getting decapitated themselves.

Spoiler: 20 Adequate Maple/Obby Swordsdwarves vs. 10 Novice Bronze Goblins (click to show/hide)

20 Dwarves with all adequate combat skills, maple armor and obsidian swords, glumprong shields
vs
10 Bronze-clad goblins with all novice combat skills

Dwarves won with no casualties. They did have some major injuries but it looks mostly recoverable. It was a rather long fight since once some goblins got knocked unconscious and then for a few days the 10 dwarves repeatedly kept slashing at the head and getting deflected, until one lucky hit severed the head.

Spoiler: 10 Adequate Bone/Crossbow Marskdwarves vs. 10 Novice Bronze Goblins (click to show/hide)

10 Dwarves with all adequate combat skills, bone armor/leather supplementation w. bone crossbow/bone bolts
vs
10 Bronze-clad goblins with all novice combat skills

Dwarves got slaughtered. again. With only bone bolts they bounced right off the bronze armor, and once got up close they had no chance. Behind fortifications, they probably wouldn't do much since the bone bolts simply can't penetrate metal armor well.

Ok... this testing was fun, even if it was of little use it was still pretty cool to watch, and I've come to the following conclusion:

If you're gonna take on a metal-equipped onslaught with only bone, leather, and wood, your best shot is to outskill and outnumber them with at least 2:1 and the strongest armor you can. Ranged weapons hardly work due to the lack of penetration with bone bolts.

[ulan]

Using proficient skilled DW glumprog sheild users (using leather armor), they beat a competent-skilled iron armored goblin pikeman in 2:1 and the only dwarf casualty was a cut open and broken leg

rofl I guess that really is best case, gonna be doing various tests for a while

e: I am having trouble testing crossbow dwarves, even after adding in ammo, they just use it as a hammer

[Urist Da Vinci]

In my last fortress I only had one single available metal, gold, and after handling that fortress for a while I got the idea for my next fortress as that fort was beeing brought down in a tidal wave of fun. Why not make an all out stone age fort, and do not use any metal at all? Seems doable, just sell out any ore to whatever traders there are, but I needed to clear up a few questions of mine
Untill I found out there wasnt any obsidian swords in the arena testing thing, so it is a bit hard to get proper answers

-What is the most effective armor outside of any metal use?
-Are leather shields any use at all compared to wooden ones
-How effective are turtle shell helms/gauntlet/greaves vs their leather counterparts
-Is the wooden armor (at least the helms/gauntlet/greaves that Ive seen) that you can buy off the elves any use?
Whats the most effective weapon(s) barring any metals?
-Obsidian sword vs Dual Wielding shield user vs obsidian sword/shield (what'd be the best melee)
-Or would the wooden practice weapons hold up lol
-Would a crossbow force be more effective anyway
-How many stone age swordwarves(or whatever else is the most effective) would it take to take down a iron armored goblin and is that ratio stable with more and more goblins
-How proficient would a stone age swordwarf(or whatever else is the most effective) have to be to take down an iron armored goblin in 1:1
-If fighting something that is armored with leather, would it change what is the most effective weapon?

The most effective nonmetal armor material is bone, made at the craftsdwarf workshop

Leather and wood shields are both just as effective as steel shields at blocking. Heavy metal shields are good if you want your dwarves to club things with them.

Wood, leather, and bone armor generally suck against even basic metal weapons, so no-one has bothered to test them much yet.

The most effective nonmetal weapon is wood arrows and bolts.

Default obsidian swords are bugged. Try this advice:

Wooden practice weapons are a joke, since you can spar with regular weapons with zero injuries. Training spears are used in the danger room exploit.

Marksdwarves would be more effective since they aren't being stabbed in the face, at least not at first.

Untested, untested.

Leather armor won't cause the most effective weapon to be less effective. It will save you from wood arrows however.

[Girlinhat]

1: Bloodthorn is the heaviest wood, best for shields for their bashing attacks (dunno what the fascination with glumprog is).
2: Crowssbows are about your only real option for weapons, again Bloodthorn is dense so it's good for when (not if) your dwarves start bashing.
3: Training Axes are your best trainer, because all training weapons are blunt and axes are the biggest weapon, making them the heaviest weapon.
4: I'd mod in bone armor completely, just add "barred" or something to the armor definition.  I forget what it is, but it allows you to make it from bone.
5: On the same note, I'd mod in some stone weapons.  Simple spears or axes seem realistic enough.

[ulan]

This is making me want to mod in atlatls heh

[Girlinhat]

It's not a bad idea, I've been tempted to do it myself several times.  Atlatls are pretty bossin' weapons overall, and should make for some powerful weapons.  Not to mention, that they could easily use the spear skill for when they get too close, it wouldn't be difficult to add an edge to a metal atlatl.

[Broseph Stalin]

When it comes to blocking a shield is a shield
I've never actually used these 
On the armor front you should use layered cloaks they can even stop steel weapons to a certain degree.
Crossbows are always a good choice, you can scare off a siege of melee fighters just by shooting bolts at them.
Obsidian Short Swords are actually based on the Mayan macuahuitl and they're actually more like clubs, that's all I know about them.

I can't really answer anything else in confidence without having scienced the questions myself.

Also I'm going to do this, no metal or farming. Strictly hunter gatherer craftsman stlye society.

[Girlinhat]

Farming is required for beer.  I suggest sweet pods for booze because it cannot be eaten raw, thus allowing you a booze-only resource.  Or mod for non-boozing, since you're doing a special fort.

[Broseph Stalin]

Farming is required for beer.  I suggest sweet pods for booze because it cannot be eaten raw, thus allowing you a booze-only resource.  Or mod for non-boozing, since you're doing a special fort.

I want to see if I can keep my entire fort drunk off of nothing but the plants they scavenge. I'll only use primative farming techniques, digging out a soil area and letting plants grow inside. It should also make my cloth armor plan more challenging if I have to work with the few pigtails that sprout up. .