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Muscles!

Pressure-Based (Vacuum/Hydraulic)
Filaments (Standard)

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Author Topic: Evolution: Origins [Sleek Futuristic Jellyfish][Sporadic Updates!]  (Read 141175 times)

RAM

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Re: Evolution: Origins [Sleek Futuristic Jellyfish]
« Reply #1035 on: July 07, 2012, 10:24:34 pm »

Attempt to develop a system of mobility based upon creating pressure fluctuations within a rigid crystalline structure.
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Zanzetkuken The Great

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Re: Evolution: Origins [Sleek Futuristic Jellyfish]
« Reply #1036 on: July 08, 2012, 12:53:47 pm »

Improve circulatory system

While it may no longer be needed for messaging, it will be necessary for the transfer of materials in a far more efficient way, and allow for the most efficient form of passage of waste products.
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Zecro_The_Scourge

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Re: Evolution: Origins [Sleek Futuristic Jellyfish]
« Reply #1037 on: July 08, 2012, 04:12:30 pm »

Improve circulatory system

While it may no longer be needed for messaging, it will be necessary for the transfer of materials in a far more efficient way, and allow for the most efficient form of passage of waste products.
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Karakzon

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Re: Evolution: Origins [Sleek Futuristic Jellyfish]
« Reply #1038 on: July 29, 2012, 02:22:48 pm »

still going?
If so: agree on post above.
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Tidal

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Re: Evolution: Origins [Sleek Futuristic Jellyfish]
« Reply #1039 on: August 02, 2012, 11:49:59 am »

Attempt to develop a system of mobility based upon creating pressure fluctuations within a rigid crystalline structure.

That seems quite complex.
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Reudh

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Re: Evolution: Origins [Sleek Futuristic Jellyfish]
« Reply #1040 on: August 02, 2012, 05:04:29 pm »

Attempt to develop a system of mobility based upon creating pressure fluctuations within a rigid crystalline structure.

That seems quite complex.

No more complex than a lot of nature. :P

The only way I think that would work though is via water jets in a similar way to how clams or squid move around.

RAM

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Re: Evolution: Origins [Sleek Futuristic Jellyfish]
« Reply #1041 on: August 02, 2012, 10:16:15 pm »

A muscle is a string attached at two ends that can change its length. By itself it would just cause something to relax or contract. If you hook it up to a pair of bones it still does much the same thing. Add in a fixed joint and it can pull something is some direction or another but you still need to contain it, if you had a muscle running from your shoulder to your wrist then you would need to stop it tearing free of your elbow. As it stands there are many physical distortions resulting from this effect. All combined, musculature is quite complex when taken as a complete system.

My proposal is very similar but instead works on a principal of pressure rather than pulling. A joint might consist of a pair of 'bones' with three tubes inside them and three compartments between them. The cells along one tube would each expand slightly and the cells along the other two would contract slightly and one compartment would expand forcefully while the other two contract forcefully creating a bending force. Or you could do the same thing by injecting fluid into the tubes. This effect could also be used directly to have a comparatively strong but slow pushing or pulling force that could be used to pierce or crush objects. With a more extensive system almost any force of expansion and contraction could be applied to many parts of the body...
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Tidal

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Re: Evolution: Origins [Sleek Futuristic Jellyfish]
« Reply #1042 on: August 04, 2012, 08:18:16 pm »

Relatively complex, when one considers that my mind is very limited in its capacity for any sort of complex thought.

For instance, trying to figure out what you meant.
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RAM

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Re: Evolution: Origins [Sleek Futuristic Jellyfish]
« Reply #1043 on: August 05, 2012, 07:32:37 am »


The above shows some examples:
Picture 1 details a muscle used to bend, with the light line used to indicate a string muscle and the dark-grey lines used to indicate the difference in the muscle's length. In the higher figure the muscle is shorter and the bones(black) are pulled towards the muscle, causing them to bend relative to each other.
Picture A shows a similar joint using bag muscles, one bag expands, causing the joint to bend away from it, while the other contracts, causing the joint to bend towards it.

Picture 2 shows a crushing joint, string muscles contract to cause it to crush, you would need additional strings to hold it open if you wanted to recreate a jaw.
Picture B shows a joint with bag muscles outside of it ready to expand to force it closed, you could also have a bag within pullng it closed, but that would require some bending in the bone to avoid crushing the interior muscle, or mounting the muscle on the sides of the bone...

Picture C shows a boneless joint. A three dimensional structure would probably require more than two lines of bags to provide stability, but provided that each bag's dimensions remain proportional it should be possible to have a boneless limb with one side expanding and the other contracting. It should also be possible to have them vary along the length of the limb to create something capable of forming a zig-zag shape for example...

Picture D shows a slightly more complicated bone structure. If all bags expand then the dome moves up. If all contract then the dome moves down. If the inner bags contract and the outer bags expand, or the inner expand and the outer contract, then the two line bones at the base form a wedge. If they all either expand or contract, but the inner do so at a different rate from the outer, then both effects occur, with both a variation in the distance of the dome from the lines and a wedge forming in the lines.
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Karakzon

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Re: Evolution: Origins [Sleek Futuristic Jellyfish]
« Reply #1044 on: August 06, 2012, 04:11:43 am »

musculature is actually very simple. It dosent run down the entire length of the arm eather -or else youde get your muscle bump from contraction in the middle of your elbow- its just one muscle to do one way, and an antagonistic muscle to go the other, connected up to the joints. Muscles used for movement anyway, the ones for facial expression get a little more complicated, but thats not really relavent at this point.


Your method would be interesting, but flawed, since nature already does this sort of movement.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2180/do-spiders-have-hydraulic-legs
http://www.asknature.org/strategy/d33d113f9f62c63f8f6bc6a607b03a4c
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22279064

The flaw comes in many points:
1)You still need two sets of hydrolics, muscles or a mixture of both to gain movement both ways. The cost of creating hydralics is the amount of room they take up compared to a muscle system which can be compacted into a smaller space.
2) without specalised backup systems, if the hydrolic tube is cut or leaks, the animal is buggerd. Its inherently less robust than normal muscle systems and just straight up more likely to fail if damaged.
3)To maintain hydraulic pressure would mean sacrificing the ability to develop finer organs notably Better brains and any form of lungs, since this pressure would have to be generated in the entire body -if not confined to the leg, which if it is, makes the leg even less robust in events of injury- This is due to the fact those systems use very thin and complex structures that would be damaged by high pressure. Or in the case of the lungs end up forcing it to bleed internaly and suffocate the animal. -Less robust in terms of injury would be the healing and repressurization time, were as a muscle just needs to patch up some muscle protein fibres and its ready to go again-
4) Hydraulic systems have less bend available to there respected joints, they are just chunkyer, as such, dexterity comparativly suffers.
5)The smaller cell bundle in use means it will tire out faster.


However there are still some Pros:
1)The abaility to quickly use large amouts of force -proporionaly- in a small space of time. Usefull for jumping or running away.
2)less material requirement and maintenance due to the fact the majority of the leg would be fluid filled tubes and not cells.
3)The reset time for the system is substantially smaller than muscles, ie the rate at which it can contract, relax and contract again. However, since muscles are still so fast, this only matters in such a great extent on a purely microscopic to small scale. Once you start getting bigger than your average spider the efficiency starts to drop faster.

-Efficiency drops due to how muscles are wired, the more muscle is used the more is activated for more use in a cascade effect, as such, your introducing more new muscle bundles per contraction, which in a prolonged encounter will give you the edge to just keep going for longer, were as the cells in the hydraulic system has eather to use the same cells harder everytime, or design a larger system that copys normal muscle cascade effects in a less space efficient area.

As such: if your part of a fast living species robustness isent much of a concern as youll probably die before the system fails, but for larger longer lived life forms, muscle wins out for utility.
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Azkanan

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Re: Evolution: Origins [Sleek Futuristic Jellyfish]
« Reply #1045 on: August 09, 2012, 10:00:17 am »

Holy shit, this game is still going? +1 internets to OP! <3.

Inspiring. I might attempt once more a forum game, but terrifyingly minimalistic.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Evolution: Origins [Sleek Futuristic Jellyfish]
« Reply #1046 on: August 09, 2012, 10:08:30 am »

Holy shit, this game is still going? +1 internets to OP! <3.

Inspiring. I might attempt once more a forum game, but terrifyingly minimalistic.
It isn't.

Some players just haven't noticed yet.
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Tidal

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Re: Evolution: Origins [Sleek Futuristic Jellyfish]
« Reply #1047 on: August 10, 2012, 05:19:49 pm »

Turn 34

     You begin implementation of a basic circulatory system.

     Then gravity tilts tilts sideways.

     You hang suspended for a brief moment before you and the ephyra are ripped away from each other by a rapid current of water. You struggle to retain control, but the relentless flow of water is much too strong for your basic mobility. After several agonizing seconds of being thrown about, the flow subsides and you regain control. You are surrounded by debris churned up by the current, much of which obscures your sight. Though you manage brief glimpses of other creatures, you see no sign of the ephyra. However, you have more pressing concerns: the rapidly-decreasing depth of the water, for instance.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Organism (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: To-Do List (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: DNA Storage (click to show/hide)
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Urist McDwarfFortress

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Re: Evolution: Origins [Sleek Futuristic Jellyfish]
« Reply #1048 on: August 10, 2012, 05:34:19 pm »

Holy shit, this game is still going?
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RAM

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Re: Evolution: Origins [Sleek Futuristic Jellyfish][Semi-Active]
« Reply #1049 on: August 10, 2012, 07:39:19 pm »

Check if that green thing is edible, if it is, grab some and stow them, we're going on an adventure!
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Vote (1) for the Urist scale!
I shall be eternally happy. I shall be able to construct elf hunting giant mecha. Which can pour magma.
Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
Read the First Post!
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