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Author Topic: What really makes an RPG?  (Read 3603 times)

Muz

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2011, 09:27:35 pm »

Character development. What qualifies a game to be called a Strategy/RPG? When the characters involved can improve. Stats, numbers, etc, are just an indicator of how much they've improved over the game. Doesn't count for sports management games because there's too many characters involved that you're not following just one, though like a wrestling game where you control one wrestler whose stats improve would be considered as a RPG.

Actually playing a role isn't really a good definition. I mean, in Tropico, you play the role of a dictator, but almost nobody would call Tropico a RPG.
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Lagslayer

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2011, 09:29:12 pm »

To me, the more influence in character and story development you have, the more RPG-like it is. It's all about meaningful choices and interactivity with the things around you.

GlyphGryph

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2011, 09:58:49 pm »

What show is that?

Community. Watching that entire episode is totally worth it, its one of the best in the series.
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Matz05

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2011, 10:10:49 pm »

Yeah, I agree that it comes down to player-influenced character development.
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Frumple

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2011, 11:10:12 pm »

The most telling trait of a computer based RPG is the existence of murder as a viable form of interpersonal problem solving*. I find this to be almost universally true to the genre.

I can't tell if this says more of the players or the developers, really.

*And the existence of interpersonal problems beyond "These are aliens/nazis/zombies, kill them," or some equivalent thereof.
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burningpet

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2011, 01:14:37 am »

Oh, before I post, I guess I should cover Morrowind and Oblivion because those are pretty popular 'RPGs'. Both games have stat progression, and characters can raise their stats and level up, so we can see they have the RPG game mechanic. Without all the stats and such, it would simply be a first/third person hack n' slash game with story lines and side quests... much like Ivefan described earlier. However, unlike what Ivefan described, we can see that Hack n' Slash games don't have to be the only kind of games with RPG elements, such as X-COM, and I'm sure there's other games out there (Fire Emblem maybe?)


I am going to have to strongly disagree here my dear mate, regardless of the rest of your post which could be attributed to opinion, one that i dont share yet dont have the will to argue, this bit about morrowind being a hack&slash (diablo has stats progression as far as i recall, cant really remember as i have only played the first oh so very long time ago) is not an opinion but a statement of a fact and a very wrong statement. unlike diablo in morrowind you can actually role play.

if you decide to be a thief, you can, side of joining the theives guild, steal every thing you need, break into any house, rob any npc/creature instead of fighting them and generally play along the ROLE of a thief, as opposed to having a bit of different stats and a bonus for taking out traps while killing everything just like the warrior as in most to all hack & slashes games.

the freedom morrowind gives you in how you play your character REGARDLESS of the enviorment feedback is beyond any hack and slash games i have ever seen. if you decide you want to be a ruthless orc with little to no care for innocent lives you can play this way too, if you want to be a gentle mage who never steals a thing and helps everyone he sees,you can do that. YOU DONT HAVE TO KILL everything on site in order to progress. you progress based on the role you are playing. sure, you still have to kill certain monsters, and sure, the main quest limits you to doing specific actions, but as far as i know (never finished morrowind despite playing it for over 30 hours) you also have options on how to approach the very same ending of the main quest.

what i mean about the bit regarding the enviorment feedback - a pc game cant have the enviorment perefctly responding to any decision you make in the game. the content, power of the computer and the design required is too vast, so expecting a game like morrowind to cover in genuine feedback every decision you make in the game is unrealistic to view.
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Flying Dice

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2011, 02:48:41 am »

The thing that really makes an RPG for me is if it is able to get me to make decisions that aren't optimized for the maximum possible gain to my character.

In other words, if I can get a huge stockpile of weapons, supplies, ammuniton, what-have-you, and all I have to do is murder some people, the game has to be convincing enough for me to value playing as a non-kleptomaniac mass murderer, and for reasons other than "if you steal and kill the game will repeatedly fuck you over/NPCs will try to kill you". So if I feel bad enough about killing these virtual characters that I decide to do the >right< thing rather than the >profitable< thing, simply because I don't want to kill them, it is doing things right.

For the vast majority of RPGs, NPCs simply aren't characterized well/deeply enough for me to care more about them than whatever loot or stat increases can be gained by not caring about them.


Interestingly enough, it isn't RPGs that tend to evoke this reaction from me the most, it is strategy games, both 4X and realtime. I find myself caring enough about individual units that I will spend (not waste) time that could be spent maxing out my research and construction rates microing a rescue force across the map to help them out; when I play against computer opponents I often find myself setting up defenses that run themselves and then having fun building stories with small groups of units. For 4X games, one of the most notable tendancies I have is in Aurora, I follow officers up through their careers, deploying entire fleets to scoop up their lifepods when their ships are destroyed, etc. And I don't do this for in-story fluff for a LP, I do it for fun.

I think a big part of this is that when the 'character' as such is largely abstract, I am able to project a personality on it, in much the same way that I do when building an identity for a PC in a RPG; I try to play the character the way it should be played, but as the PC is often the only sympathetic character in many RPGs (largely because it is the only one with a fully-developed personality, as the player is actively supplying that), this tends to devolve into every character being the aforementioned kleptomaniac mass murderer, because that tends to be the most effective at furthering the aims of the character.

So essentially, for me a successful RPG is one which makes the PC (i.e. the player-driven personality) care about other characters, even when doing so is detrimental to their own success and profit. Basically, it needs to be able to evoke compassion, remorse, protectiveness and other strong positive emotions in the PC in much the same way that they are evoked in most real humans.


And that, in turn, makes violent klepto PCs in RPGs which successfully do that the virtual equivalent of bankers and stock traders.
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Draco18s

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2011, 10:16:45 am »

The most telling trait of a computer based RPG is the existence of murder as a viable form of interpersonal problem solving*. I find this to be almost universally true to the genre.

Remember kids: Anything other than direct, confrontational murder makes you less of a person.
</relevance_of_sig_quote>
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Kaleb702 Games

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2011, 11:28:42 am »

The developers, of course.
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Flying Dice

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2011, 11:56:01 am »

The most telling trait of a computer based RPG is the existence of murder as a viable form of interpersonal problem solving*. I find this to be almost universally true to the genre.

Remember kids: Anything other than direct, confrontational murder makes you less of a person.
</relevance_of_sig_quote>

What about the kind of murder where you slowly murder someone's soul over the course of twenty years of a poorly planned relationship, until they are finally driven to suicide by your insensitivity and hatefulness? Because that would be much more "realistic" than gibs and blood splatter.
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scriver

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2011, 12:38:44 pm »

For me, there are two main things which determines an RPG:

1, The existence of stats which determine what your character can and cannot do (but not necessarily try). Not the stats themselves, that is, but the impact it has on your game. This doesn't have to be ye olde boring DnD-like attributes, but can be in essentially any shape or form as long as it puts restrictions - and gives opportunities - to the player.

This also means a good RPG needs to provide options for the kinds of characters it's enables you to play. For a simple example, being a thief-type of character shouldn't just mean you fight monsters with two daggers instead of a claymore, it should mean opportunities to do "quests"/"missions" differently than a warrior- or mage-type could, or even open up stories they cannot experience, due to their lack of skills in the stealthy department.

2, Less necessary, and it ties in pretty much with #1, is the good old "choice and consequence". A very worn buzzword, I know, but I believe C&C is still important for an RPG. Sure, most games would profit from having it, but non-linearity, and making choices and experiencing the results of those choices are pretty much vital. It is these choices that enable you to actually "roleplay" as I feel it is supposed to mean in context, as opposed to just playing a role. It is what makes the character your character, as opposed to something the game developers handed to you. The more C&C there is, the better the RPG.

*snip*
This is what I would call "RPG elements". These do not decide whether a game is an RPG or not, in my mind. Any game can have them. The important thing is whether or not the game's focus is on these elements, or whether they're just there to enhance the game. Which would make the game either an RPG or an (for example) "action game with RPG elements" respectively.

Of course, there's often not a clear line between the two. The deeper the RPG elements run, the more blurred it becomes. Very often it is impossible to tell whether a game is an "action RPG" or said "action with RPG elements". It does become kinda redundant a distinction at those times, doesn't it.
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Darion

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2011, 12:53:33 pm »

Buying healing potions.
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Draco18s

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2011, 01:56:51 pm »

What about the kind of murder where you slowly murder someone's soul over the course of twenty years of a poorly planned relationship, until they are finally driven to suicide by your insensitivity and hatefulness? Because that would be much more "realistic" than gibs and blood splatter.

If you threw them in a torture chamber, then you leeched all of their soul for your own profit.
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