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Author Topic: What really makes an RPG?  (Read 3601 times)

GlyphGryph

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2011, 03:09:47 pm »

Your conflating again, and completly failing to respond to what I just pointed out.

He asked us what we consider to be an RPG. At this time.

Not what we would "like to be" the definition of RPG, but what we "consider" to currently fall under that banner.

When you're talking about something that is no more than a descriptive term, what you think other people thinks matters, and it certainly wasn't the entirety of my post.

Quote
Sergius is also describing what [games in the RPG genre] do, rather than what he thinks they should be.
Because this is what was asked, perhaps? It's at the very least indicative of what games he thinks falls in the genre and why, don't you think?
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postal83

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2011, 03:41:14 pm »

For me, RPG makes me automatically think of western style RPGs.  Like The Elder Scrolls, or even Diablo.  To me, it's mostly leveling, getting cash, and getting bigger and badder.  Mostly I think of medieval or Tolkien fantasy settings for RPG.

However, I'm currently in the middle of Deus Ex : HR and it has RPG  elements, but I just don't really think of it as RPG in my "traditional" outlook of RPGs...

Anyways, just my personal definition of RPGs.
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Ozyton

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2011, 03:54:02 pm »

I suppose it wouldn't hurt to post here.

I think "RPG" is basically just a sort of gameplay mechanic, where there is some kind of character progression or some other kind of progression (I.E. leveling up to become stronger, your equipment doing more damage as you use it, that kind of thing) and doesn't really have much to do with 'role playing.'

Some of you have mentioned making choices and such to define the genre, but if we consider 'RPGs' to be a gameplay mechanic instead of a genre then I suppose you could apply decision making to other genres of games without it actually being an 'RPG'.

For example, if you're playing an RTS game of some sort, and at some point you can choose to take a supply line to make it easier to attack a certain place, or to try to take it with a surprise attack before reinforcements arrive, would you consider that to be an RPG? I would consider it an RTS with decision making elements. I suppose you could upgrade your units, as some RTS games do, so would that mean the units have progression like in an 'RPG'?

What about an FPS/TPS where the only real progression is you get better weapons as enemies get tougher. If you can decide where to go and who to kill and leave behind or give weapons to, would that be an RPG? Perhaps because you play the role of a single person who makes decisions it could be considered that since you are 'playing a role', but there are no stats and numbers to raise, so it wouldn't fit with the whole 'RPG' game mechanic.

So... what about games like X-COM? Every unit has stats like in an RPG, but you do not play the role of a character who has any progression, you are some kind of omnipresent commander that tells the units what to do. On top of that, you gain better technology, weapons, and facilities as you spend money. So, I suppose I would consider X-COM to be much like a Turn Based (combat) Management(?) (the map view where you build your bases, and decide what missions to do) RPG (the progression of the units, and perhaps even the equipment you give them. The equipment doesn't gain stat bonuses like units do, though, so would that count?).

I hope you can understand what I'm getting at, it's hard for me to describe these sort of things =p

Oh, before I post, I guess I should cover Morrowind and Oblivion because those are pretty popular 'RPGs'. Both games have stat progression, and characters can raise their stats and level up, so we can see they have the RPG game mechanic. Without all the stats and such, it would simply be a first/third person hack n' slash game with story lines and side quests... much like Ivefan described earlier. However, unlike what Ivefan described, we can see that Hack n' Slash games don't have to be the only kind of games with RPG elements, such as X-COM, and I'm sure there's other games out there (Fire Emblem maybe?)

So to make it clear: I think that 'RPG' describes leveling up, stats progression, that sort of thing. I do NOT think it describes decision making and how in-depth the story has to be, or even what kind of actual gameplay you have (Shooter, side scroller, adventure, whatever)

dennislp3

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2011, 04:04:21 pm »

Mechanically, an RPG to me is all about character advancement...preferably free form/player choice (be it in rank, skill, ability, station in life etc).

keep in mind that I am not talking about leveling and grinding....I also mean things like going from boy peasant to king etc.

the more power and choice (and effects of choices) left in the hands of the player the better off of an RPG you will have.

add in the social aspect of people and it becomes a much more enjoyable experience dealing with other people that change the dynamics of the world based on actions and etc to an almost unlimited extent.

I play a NWN2 PW called "Legacy: Dark Age of Britain" and its the best server I have ever played and the best role playing I have ever taken part in (both mechanically and socially)

Also this post is rather short and broad...as I am preparing for a hurricane and just squeezing in a quick response lol
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mr. macduggan

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2011, 04:20:34 pm »

Okay this is a question that has been bugging me for ages due to the psuedo intellectuals of escapist forums.
I just want to know if everyone is retarded or not.
So go ahead and define what YOU consider a RPG.

To be an RPG, it has to have grind.

And people willing to do something because some barkeep told them to.

And plus signs followed by numbers. Like "+3".

(this list is not exhaustive)
(this list is)
http://project-apollo.net/text/rpg.html
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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2011, 06:17:20 pm »

RPG is an essentially useless term unless you specify the subgenre.  Any attempt to say "well, an RPG is..." or "you know, an RPG should..." is just going to alienate entire fandoms.  The term RPG describes several very distinct groups of games.  It's like how native americans and people from India are both called Indians because of haphazard application of terminology in history.

Once you start talking in terms of p&p RPGs, Crpgs, jrpgs, etc. then it's possible to have a sane discussion.
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Sergius

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2011, 06:47:08 pm »

Okay, ignoring Draco18s' blatant attempt to kill steal from me and take my loot, here's what I think RPG "originally" meant:

(semi serious rambling)

First, we have that RPG means "role-playing game".

From the first part, "role-playing", I associate it with stuff like what psychiatrists make people do in therapy, like, pretend to be somebody else.

I don't just mean like, oh I'm Mario, I'm jumping barrels or something, so I'm role-playing. But more like, actually try to act like that guy would act in a given situation, or try to imagine it. Theatre is similar to this... but there's a written plot. Unless it's improvisational. But then not all actors role-play, some just perform.

Then there's the "game" part. If we have a game, it means we have a goal or something. Maybe a way to keep score. Probably interacting with other players is a factor. Maybe we get gold, or points of some sort, or just some sort of imaginary trophy, or a cool castle, or at least the satisfaction of knowing that we completed our task. We may fail at the task (or we may end up doing achieving something completely different but not less satisfactory). So despite the claims of a lot of people "in the industry", there's some sort of win and lose condition (lose = we die, or we don't manage to do anything worthwhile, win = finish the task, or simply survive, which could be the goal, or simply do anything that somehow advances the plot). If losing is fun, then you win anyway, I guess... the alleged "win condition" was still there, somewhere, implied even, even if you found a more interesting win condition.

Now, number crunching. Why do we have that? Do RPGs need to have numbers? And levels? I say yes and no. Numbers/stats are just an abstraction. To what? Well, simple: we're roleplaying, pretending to be someone else. It's easy to be us: if we're great at math in real life, we're great at math in the game. So stats are a way to create a new personality that isn't us. We suck at math in the game, because we have intelligence minus infinity, or Math Skill = abysmal. Whatever. Most roleplaying geeks aren't great at swinging swords either, so a stat lets us pretend to be Conan.

Otherwise we would win by hitting the game manager with a stick, or he would have to challenge us with real-world examples of mathematical problems. That's also a problem because the real GM may suck at math.

I suppose "fair" players could do that without any stat. They'll just say "well, my character isn't a great musician, so his attempt to charm the peasants with his flute enrages them instead!". But some people just can't be helped, and their choice not to invest in flute-playing skill must be enforced somehow. Still doesn't need "numbers" but at least a description, which can just be enforced by the person running the game.

Now we have computers and game consoles. Can you roleplay in a computer? Well... maybe in a multiplayer game for the benefit of others. It's hard for a computer to know if people are roleplaying or not. But some games have nice rulesets for the "crunching" part and someone thought "well, what if a computer does that part!", so basically computer games are adventure games with the "simulation" part of RPGs. Adventure games have a predefined plot and you solve puzzles, but you don't really decide how events are going to transpire, and anything you do outside of the scope of the adventure has no effect.

We still call them RPGs tho, because they take a part (sometimes an important part) of the original RPGs, which is the rules part. Things that don't depend on gaming skill (reflexes, sword swinging skills with a WiiMote) but on pretending that the you that isn't you on the screen can actually swing a sword without beheading himself.

But other kinds of games also have rules! (Archon has rules). Well, RPGs have rules that are reminiscent of the pen and paper rules. That's the basic difference. So a CRPG is, for example, something based on D&D. Because even if rolling 20 + thac0 minus AC or whatever doesn't make a game "role playing", anymore than "take 5 cards and try to match them in pairs, trios and so on" does. But at least it's the same franchise.

Then there's games that didn't exist in pen & paper. But they feel like those. Or something. So we have a game where you have "attack 10 defense 5" and you "level up", well, people call those RPGs. To some, linear games aren't RPGs, and that's fair, since most people consider railroading a bad form of RPG. But of course you'll never have 100% freedom unless you invent a 100% creative computer/software.

So what IS RPG and what is NOT? Well, the answer is... 3.14. I mean Abraham Lincoln.


EDIT: Note that pen and paper role playing games don't always have a "level progression" mechanic. This is almost mandatory in CRPGs mostly because they're trying to be like mainstream p&p in those regards. But look for example at Spirit of the Century, you pretty much start every character at "maximum level" yet I consider it a role playing game. You can respec a little but that's more like tweaking. (and according to the authors, just change is a type of character growth, even if you don't "increase" somehow).
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 06:51:30 pm by Sergius »
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Vibhor

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2011, 09:22:09 pm »

Okay heres what I think a COMPUTER RPG is.
To find the definition of RPG we would have to go to one of the most earliest computer RPG.
Bard's tale.
Now if you weren't born so early and don't know jack shit about it, let me explain the gameplay to you.
You made a party of 6 people, whom attributes were generated randomly after you selected their class. You could name them anything you liked. The game was very grind heavy. You were supposed to grind like hell if you planned to get anywhere. Also, the (Random)encounters were absolutely terrible if you didn't know what you were doing.
The game was huge success being one of the first.
Now fast forward to TES:Arena
The game was a first person dungeon crawler, much like wizardry, only not. The game had no party system, you were a single man against the world. The game had the usual leveling up system but wasn't SO grind heavy. It wasn't exactly a commercial success (or even a critical one) but the game stood out because of the no party system. The world still wasn't settled for a correct definition of a RPG, so they thought that RPGs were made by party system. Some people argued that the game wasn't exactly a RPG so yeah....

Those paragraph had no relation to what a RPG is but I wanted to type them anyway.
Now here is the real meat.
An RPG is defined as a role playing game, Right?
So this means that every game where you play a role is a RPG?
Well not exactly, RPGs have always have been about playing the complete role of a character. This is where the attributes and stats are important. The "numbers" represent the character's skills. If the game is stats driven then you are playing the characters role.
Let me state an example.
Lets say there is this guy who has a trinket you like and you want it. Now in a usual game, he would have three dialog options out of which 1 would be the correct one.
Now in a RPG the dialog option would be clear as day but it would have a persuasion check on so that a character that talks like hulk doesn't actually act all suave and cool.
If you still don't understand it, I could elaborate it more.

Also, think before mock a JRPG. They are in the vein of old WRPG more than the current ones.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2011, 10:14:32 pm »

Quote
Well not exactly, RPGs have always have been about playing the complete role of a character.
Why do you then go on to explain how the player ISN'T playing the complete role of the character? (by definition, if the game is playing a bit for you, you aren't) You're more playing the role of some sort of puppet-master than the role of the character. Not to say abstraction is a bad thing, at all! But it's note roleplaying, and many of the traditional RPG tropes (arbitrary placement of skills from generic points for killing things over and over again) seem very much like "roleplaying" either.

RPGs haven't, by definition, had anything to do with roleplaying in a long time in any but the vaguest sense. Many involve a bit of roleplaying, sure! But it's not a crucial element, I don't think.
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Vibhor

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2011, 10:46:53 pm »

Quote
Well not exactly, RPGs have always have been about playing the complete role of a character.
Why do you then go on to explain how the player ISN'T playing the complete role of the character? (by definition, if the game is playing a bit for you, you aren't) You're more playing the role of some sort of puppet-master than the role of the character.

And that is exactly what you need to do. Be a puppet master.
You are not being yourself, you are being someone else with completely different talents than you.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2011, 11:01:14 pm »

...what?

That doesn't make any sense.

If you're being the puppet master, you aren't being the person. If you're telling the person what to do, you aren't taking on the person's role. What you're saying doesn't make any sense.
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ndkid

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2011, 11:07:18 pm »

I posted my answer earlier in this thread, but reading people's answers reminded me of a wonderful talk Neil Gaiman gave at MIT several years ago, in which he used the metaphor of pornography to define what genre is. Basically, his position came down to: genre elements are the things that the audience who went to go see/do something because it was a member of that genre would notice the lack of. Which is subtly different from personal definition, as it tries to aggregate a bit.
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Sergius

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2011, 06:59:38 pm »

...what?

That doesn't make any sense.

If you're being the puppet master, you aren't being the person. If you're telling the person what to do, you aren't taking on the person's role. What you're saying doesn't make any sense.

Well, let's call them Puppet-Playing Games or PPGs. With dice. Er, Puppet Dice Playing Games. With stats. Stats and Dice Puppet Playing Games.

EDIT: Also this.

EDIT AGAIN: And especially this.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 07:06:29 pm by Sergius »
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GlyphGryph

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2011, 07:11:32 pm »

I love that show, especially that episode. Heheh. Now there's some proper roleplaying.
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Draco18s

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Re: What really makes an RPG?
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2011, 09:15:26 pm »

I love that show, especially that episode. Heheh. Now there's some proper roleplaying.

What show is that?
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