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[Eктωρ]

In the current system, one log can me made into one wall tile or one block.
Although I do agree that IRL building with wood takes a lot of raw material, I ran a little test now.

10x8 building, 2 stories tall, total trees used = 229 iirc

I think that's a little too much, imo one tree should yield at least two logs, and one log should yield at least two blocks, trees aren't all 1 meter tall, and when processed can yield a lot of planks and things like that.

[Bohandas]

trees aren't all 1 meter tall, and when processed can yield a lot of planks and things like that.

I think that one "Block" is actually meant to represent many blocks (Furthermore I propose to Toady that the terminology should be changed to reflect this)

[ImBocaire]

The real issue, of course, is that material size is effectively meaningless in terms of yield. One log yields one wall section, one block, one table, or one amulet. It's the most jarring for wood, but the same issue applies for stone and metal. It would be really nice to have some sort of fractional-material-use system across the board.

[Waparius]

The real issue, of course, is that material size is effectively meaningless in terms of yield. One log yields one wall section, one block, one table, or one amulet. It's the most jarring for wood, but the same issue applies for stone and metal. It would be really nice to have some sort of fractional-material-use system across the board.

 At the moment it's a lot easier to dig out a fort than build aboveground because each dug square has walls, floors and ceilings on all sides, but only provides the materials to build one wall, floor or ceiling...though given how thick dwarven walls are it makes sense.

For that sort of thing to not get in the way of the "dwarves live underground" schtick you'd probably have to have a distinction between quarrying and tunneling, as some have suggested. If there's some way of getting rid of trash without it interfering with your framerate - say, offsite dumping - then you could also bring in rubble, sawdust and more realistic excavation, with the option to fill areas with rubble (eg in wall- or road-building) and break down unwanted stone items into rubble. Or gravel, to make it distinct.

But doing that without the option to dump off-site would make it all but impossible to dig out a good-sized fort, just because there'd be nowhere to put all that rock.

[Bohandas]

For that sort of thing to not get in the way of the "dwarves live underground" schtick you'd probably have to have a distinction between quarrying and tunneling, as some have suggested.

Wait. Why?

[Agorp Stronden]

Trees should all produce one log! Really though, one log should be used as is in building simple structures: walls, floors, ramps, or made into multiple planks or blocks of logs(woodcutter job) and each of those planks or blocks can be used in further structures or items. I touched upon this idea in the first paragraph here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=90525.msg2530373#msg2530373 , though it makes more sense for the logs to be processed for more usable wooden building material in a workshop.

[zombie urist]

I'm thinking a tree can be cut to produce a "raw log" which can then be processed into lumber at a sawmill workshop which can then be used to build or be turned into splints, etc.

[Bohandas]

Oh, one thing I just thought of. While the trees in this game do produce unrealistically small amounts of wood, they also grow unrealistically fast, often maturing in under a year (IIRC), so it all balances out.

[xRDVx]

The real issue is that one block is small enough that only one dwarf is able to stand in it, and big enough that there can be 999 crawling and one standing in the same square.

There is no real *size* of anything. The same way you need one piece of rock for a wall or for a toy, or anything else you might want to do with rock. Not just wood.

IIRC, Toady did say he would eventually get around it and do something about it.

[Silverionmox]

But doing that without the option to dump off-site would make it all but impossible to dig out a good-sized fort, just because there'd be nowhere to put all that rock.

In real life, it happens like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoil_tip

As you say there should be some way to tell the game to ignore all the items in that spoil tip, otherwise all fortresses would die of FPS death before reaching population 50.

Oh, one thing I just thought of. While the trees in this game do produce unrealistically small amounts of wood, they also grow unrealistically fast, often maturing in under a year (IIRC), so it all balances out.

I think of the trees in DF as types of bamboo: low and fast-growing.

[Bohandas]

Oh, one thing I just thought of. While the trees in this game do produce unrealistically small amounts of wood, they also grow unrealistically fast, often maturing in under a year (IIRC), so it all balances out.

I think of the trees in DF as types of bamboo: low and fast-growing.

And that actually brings up another related point, which is that we should be able to use bamboo to make stuff.

[Agorp Stronden]

Oh, one thing I just thought of. While the trees in this game do produce unrealistically small amounts of wood, they also grow unrealistically fast, often maturing in under a year (IIRC), so it all balances out.

But this doesn't help out our desert Dwarflords. The advantages to forest or desert biomes would still be pronounced with higher amounts of usable wood for both. Forests are naturally rich and deserts are not completely stark, I do believe that a higher yield of wood is necessary; more wood from one tree, or the woodcutter's cabin workshop to process logs...

[Forumite]

Oh, one thing I just thought of. While the trees in this game do produce unrealistically small amounts of wood, they also grow unrealistically fast, often maturing in under a year (IIRC), so it all balances out.

But this doesn't help out our desert Dwarflords. The advantages to forest or desert biomes would still be pronounced with higher amounts of usable wood for both. Forests are naturally rich and deserts are not completely stark, I do believe that a higher yield of wood is necessary; more wood from one tree, or the woodcutter's cabin workshop to process logs...

The Desert Dwarflords still have it easier, they have less trees to cut down. My wood cutters are working nonstop just to clear the ground right outside the entrance. Bloody trees...

Jokes aside, if trees give more wood, then it could be balanced by trees growing slower, not being big enough to yield a full log until after several years.

[catoblepas]

Animals currently drop multiple units of meat/fat etc based upon their size. I think that trees should also have a size tag that determines their maximum size, and how fast they grow. cutting down saplings should obviously only yield one log, but an ancient redwood? that should yield much more. Larger trees should also take longer to get cut down, of course. Logs aren't the only items in the game that have the size problem, of course. As mentioned previously, stone does this too. The problem is that stone is increadibly easy to get, which goes completely against any sort of normal logic. Other things that have similar problems are skin (animals only yield one unit no matter the size of the creature) bones (although animals yield bones proportional to their size, bonecarvers will still use massive amounts of elephant bone instead of just taking the minimum) and meals. There is certainly work to be done, personally I would like it if skin and wood got fixed soonish.

[Orangebottle]

I had an idea on IRC one day. There should be giant trees. AKA, trees that are terrain much like soil and rock, and can be cut away with the woodcutter skill. These wouldn't grow, of course. And would only show up in their own biome. But I think it would be interesting to have tree-forts. Would also be a nice place for forest retreats to show up.