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[Urist Da Vinci]

da Vinci, maybe his dwarves will cut out the heart because the fat and skin has rotted off/been taken off and the heart is then accessible for amputation? Try an upper-body rot test with the melting cats.

Good idea, that they may need an access route.

Also, how exactly do you get cats to melt and give syndromes? I'm interested in doing some syndrome testing myself.

Copy the poison material from the Giant Desert Scorpion to the Cat, then change the part of the cat's entry to use the poison material instead of the default blood, for blood. Copy the part from the Dragon entry that sets all of its melting/boiling points very high, except lower the melting point to 9000. The cats might live longer and bleed more poison if you only have their fat or muscles melt, instead of everything.

In response to an earlier post, people can be wrong without having to be untruthful, because they are correctly reporting what they observed, but they happened to not see something important.

Now, I've got more tests to run that resemble 'Unit 731'.

[Urist Da Vinci]

Test: full body rot, except for vital organs (lungs, brain, spine)
Patients bled to death on surgery table. Blood loss was caused by the surgeons while excising so much rotten tissue. You know how blood spatters sometimes during surgery? It kept happening, until it was a pool of blood.

Code: [Select]

[CE_NECROSIS:SEV:30000:PROB:100:BP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:SKIN:START:0:PEAK:60]
[CE_NECROSIS:SEV:30000:PROB:100:BP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:FAT:START:0:PEAK:60]
[CE_NECROSIS:SEV:30000:PROB:100:BP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:MUSCLE:START:0:PEAK:60]
[CE_NECROSIS:SEV:30000:PROB:100:BP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:BONE:START:0:PEAK:60]
[CE_NECROSIS:SEV:30000:PROB:100:BP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:HEART:START:0:PEAK:60]
[CE_NECROSIS:SEV:30000:PROB:100:BP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:LIVER:START:0:PEAK:60]
[CE_NECROSIS:SEV:30000:PROB:100:BP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:GUT:START:0:PEAK:60]
[CE_NECROSIS:SEV:30000:PROB:100:BP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:STOMACH:START:0:PEAK:60]
[CE_NECROSIS:SEV:30000:PROB:100:BP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:PANCREAS:START:0:PEAK:60]
[CE_NECROSIS:SEV:30000:PROB:100:BP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:SPLEEN:START:0:PEAK:60]
[CE_NECROSIS:SEV:30000:PROB:100:BP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:KIDNEY:START:0:PEAK:60]
[CE_NECROSIS:SEV:30000:PROB:100:BP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:EYE:START:0:PEAK:60]
[CE_NECROSIS:SEV:30000:PROB:100:BP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:HAIR:START:0:PEAK:60]
[CE_NECROSIS:SEV:30000:PROB:100:BP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:TOOTH:START:0:PEAK:60]

I'm going to try just a hand next.

EDIT:
Used a better syndrome. The last one wouldn't end, so it couldn't be cured. Couldn't get doctors to amputate Advanced rot hands. Doctors would just excise the rotten tissue, and the dwarf would still have his hands.

I'm giving up for now on this topic, can't force anything interesting. All results seem to indicate that amputations are dummied out.

Has anyone see amputation on a living dwarf medical chart?

[Imakuni]

There are no FB corpses anywhere anymore.  They have all either decayed or been butchered.  I've already walled/floored/cordoned off the area where any FBs have been killed.  I know one of the FBs was causing this all-body rot with deadly dust, but he died many years ago and I have no idea where the contaminant suddenly came from again.  I've done everything I know to do, and all that's left is that dorfs and pets have suddenly started rotting from within, seemingly arbitrarily, and the doctors are having !!FUN!!

Urist McImmigrant: "Hi there! I'm new here in Basementstricken!  Please treat me welllll---aaaRRRGH!"
Urist McDiagnoser: "Do you have the rot?  Are you clean?  Is it safe? IS! IT! SAFE!"
Urist McImmigrant: "Uh!  I don't know whaaa---aaaAARGHH!"
Urist McDiagnoser: "TO SURGERY! NOW!"
Urist McSurgeon: "Yeeeehhhhsssss."
Urist McImmigrant: "What?! Hey! What's going onnn---aaaaRRRGGHH!!"
Urist McSurgeon: "Must remove the rot, yes.  This one is unclean, ssssss.  Purity of essence, yesss."
Urist McImmigrant: "Whhaa---aaaARRGHH OW!  MY PANCREAS!  AAAAGGHH!! THAT'S MY - NOOOOO---AAARRGHGHHH!!!"

Urist McImmigrant has suffocated.

Urist McDiagnoser: "This one has been cleansed with the blood of Armok!  We must be strong and resist the corruption.  The corruption that rots from within.  Eh heh. Ehh heheheh.  AaahhhhHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!"

Somebody must sig this, and since nobody has yet, it shall be me.

[The Master]

I can confirm that the docs will INDEED cut out organs IF accessible AND necessary! It happened on one of my forts. It was caused by a forgotten beast getting fatally knocked into the fort's only water supply, which was an underground lake. the extract contained a syndrome which rotted the skin, ribs, lungs, and heart. You can guess how the doc managed to reach the heart.

[Urist Da Vinci]

I can confirm that the docs will INDEED cut out organs IF accessible AND necessary! It happened on one of my forts. It was caused by a forgotten beast getting fatally knocked into the fort's only water supply, which was an underground lake. the extract contained a syndrome which rotted the skin, ribs, lungs, and heart. You can guess how the doc managed to reach the heart.

I can't guess, could you please explain?

I've noticed that the heart can be really badly damaged without killing a dwarf, but if enough damage occurs to the lungs or spinal cord, the dwarf suffocates. Physical brain damage is lethal, but brain rotting also causes suffocation. In my own testing, I tried to exclude deaths due to suffocation.

EDIT: Just tried a syndrome that rotten all skin, muscle, and fat on the dwarf, as well as the heart.
After surgery, the dwarf walked away with full-body scars, but the heart was still rotten, as was the muscle in the joints. Both of those locations are [INTERNAL], so I guess that I need to actually puncture the dwarf somehow in the upper body to provide heart access. Or is there a syndrome other than necrosis that causes tissue damage? Bruising, perhaps?

[Urist Da Vinci]

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_2009.html#2009-09-05

They excise rotten tissue from wounds now, and they'll amputate limbs that are too rotted to save. Fortunately, I remembered to make them check that they aren't amputating important bits like the head or lower body (although if the head or lower body is actually that rotten, the critter probably would have died already just from raw body damage). Since I had to put infections and systemic problems off, the rotting tissue isn't indirectly harmful like it should be, so for now we can consider it part of odor prevention or something. Though rotting wounds don't smell either. I guess we can just consider it valuable practice for budding surgeons.

Looks like Toady made it so doctors won't amputate parts that would result in the death of the patient.

I should have remembered to search the forums and devlog. Would have made this faster, less painful.

[MarcAFK]

Less painful maybe, but your !!!science!!! was entertaining nevertheless, good work

[Deimos56]

Is it possible they were excising tissue from something that really shouldn't have holes in it?

Like the throat?

[GreatWyrmGold]

I just tested these claims.

I modded cats to melt on embark, producing puddles of cat-syndrome-laden-goo. The cat syndrome targeted the eyes and the heart with advanced rot (taken from the GDS syndrome). I also modded out shoes from the dwarf entity.

On my test embark, the cats died and the 4 dwarves who rushed over to clean up the puddles became infected. I set up a hospital and let the doctors go to work. All of the starting 7 were full doctors. After the "Diagnosis", there was a short bit of "Surgery", followed by the "Remove Rotten Tissue" job. After the doctors left to clean up, the medical charts for the dwarves had "Rotten tissue excised from left eye". The dwarves had scars on both eyes, which were blind since most of their tissue was excised. The heart was still rotten, had no surgery performed on it, and was not amputated. The eyes weren't even amputated, just cut apart.

I'm calling BS on doctors killing patients. In DF, there is neglect, but there isn't malpractice.

Just to point out a few things:
1. Hearts aren't vital organs in DF, yet. Heartlessness is just fine. Getting a rotten heart just causes some bleeding.
2. If the docs were skilled enough diagnosticians, maybe they realize cutting out vital organs or ones with lots of major arteries is a BAD thing.
3. You can't cut out eyeballs in Adventure Mode, maybe the same concept applies as a bug for surgeons in Fortress Mode?

[Kilroy the Grand]

Also, how exactly do you get cats to melt and give syndromes? I'm interested in doing some syndrome testing myself.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=92045.msg2571232#msg2571232

It causes full body rot! I think it's a bit more efficent than using cats myself.

[Crazy Cow]

I can confirm that the docs will INDEED cut out organs IF accessible AND necessary! It happened on one of my forts. It was caused by a forgotten beast getting fatally knocked into the fort's only water supply, which was an underground lake. the extract contained a syndrome which rotted the skin, ribs, lungs, and heart. You can guess how the doc managed to reach the heart.

Sorry to beat up on you, Master, but you were the one who could be quoted with the least hassle This statement is false.
All organs cannot be removed. They are all [INTERNAL], which means that they cannot 'fly off in an arc!' and cannot be removed from a creature in any way. Have you ever seen hearts or livers severed in combat reports? [INTERNAL] body parts can be damaged (although most of them are [SMALL], meaning they can't be targeted) but they will not leave a creature for any reason. A good example is eyes; they are [INTERNAL] but not [SMALL], so they can be hit but never severed. Artifact steel battleaxes can mess an eye up but never, under any circumstances, sever one. Combined with the healing rate of eyes, this creates the unintentional effect that eyes will regenerate to perfect condition in a season or so.
So, no removal of hearts or other organs. Sorry, guys.
It was quite hilarious that doctors will remove everything, though

EDIT:
Damnations, this thread is a month old. Teaches me to follow a ton of sig links and forget which ones are which :/

[MarcAFK]

So if i mod dwarves to be covered in eyes for skin they'll heal completely in a season? Awesome!

[Crazy Cow]

It's the eye tissue that you want. What happens in real life is that eyes naturally heal fast, so unless they get irreparably damaged, things like scratches and stuff heal relatively quickly. The All-Seeing Toady knows this, and so eye tissue heals fast in DF. Because eyes cannot be completely destroyed in DF, they will heal fully from any damage they take. If your dwarves had skin made of eye tissue, their skin would heal almost immediately, but everything else would still be damaged normally. If you make everything out of eye tissue, then the only way to harm a dwarf would be to remove the thing you want gone, such as the arm or head. Your dwarves won't be invincible (I doubt there is anything you could to top ensure that), but they will heal at a tremendous rate.

[ulan]

I could only see that addition ending well, especially with Genesis and the other mods that err... "expand the dwarven anatomy"

Urist McMadhatter's *Wooden Bolt* hits Urist McPoorsod in the baby maker!
Urist McPoorsod gives in to the pain!