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Author Topic: Roguelike Mafia 3 - Rise of the Jewel [Game Over]  (Read 113682 times)

Max White

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 3 - All Present and Accounted For [Day 2] [Need Replacement]
« Reply #315 on: September 09, 2011, 04:37:13 pm »

Orange: What do you think is the best method for hunting scum this game?

Simple

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 3 - All Present and Accounted For [Day 2] [Need Replacement]
« Reply #316 on: September 09, 2011, 04:44:09 pm »

-snip-
I would agree with you if he didn't claim doing nothing that night.If he was doing nothing how sudden glow on his weapon could be considered as blank flavor ? If he was using some item, that's something completely different. Unless you meant something else ?
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Orangebottle

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 3 - All Present and Accounted For [Day 2] [Need Replacement]
« Reply #317 on: September 09, 2011, 05:47:31 pm »

That's my point numbnut. He didn't say that. No wait. My point is actually that it didn't seem to bother you that he didn't do it. You just showed that you are aware that instead of doing what he did. And yet you only FoS'd him for his lame excuse rather than the fact that he is being so passive.
I have two FoS's on him. One at the beginning of day two, and one sometime during day one. The second includes his passivity, so I can only think you mean the first. I have no idea what you mean by the bolded part. And yes, his excuse was lame. And I found that suspicious. I accuse him of passivity on the next page, so even if it wasn't part of my original reasoning for FoSing him, I still pointed it out.
It's not. Bandwagonning however is. which is why I voted for you in the first place.
Had you just said "Webadict had a good point there. That made me suspicious of TolyK. Why do you care so much about it?", then I'd have retracted my vote. Instead however you go great lengths to tell me that I am throwing around shit. Which is why my vote is staying where it is for now.
Bandwagoning? It's a freaking FoS. That's not a bandwagon. So basically, you are throwing around shit, because you don't want to look scummy by abandoning the quickly sinking ship that is your case.

Or you are blindly following him. Which is why I started investigating you. Your actions betray your words and I can throw my excrements at whoever I want, thank you very much.
What. Or I could just be agreeing him? Notice how TolyK's only an FoS, and Dariush is a full vote. If I had been 'blindly following' webadict as you say, I would've immediately dumped my case on Dariush/NUKE/whomever it was at the time and voted for TolyK.

Darvi? Why are you continuing this case? It has so very many holes in it.

Orange: What do you think is the best method for hunting scum this game?
In this game? How does this game differ from every other game of mafia ever? Sure, you have items instead of set roles, but the system should still be relatively similar. Ask questions of people you find suspicious, follow up with more questions or a full-on attack should they prove to be scummy. They should be valid questions, too. Also, people who use that "piss people off to get them to drop scumtells"(IE Dariush) strategy are stupid; mad town will drop as many scumtells as bad scum.
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Max White

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 3 - All Present and Accounted For [Day 2] [Need Replacement]
« Reply #318 on: September 09, 2011, 05:50:16 pm »

So if you think that questioning is how Townies hunt scum, why are you being so opposed to questions?

Darvi

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 3 - All Present and Accounted For [Day 2] [Need Replacement]
« Reply #319 on: September 09, 2011, 06:02:35 pm »

That's my point numbnut. He didn't say that. No wait. My point is actually that it didn't seem to bother you that he didn't do it. You just showed that you are aware that instead of doing what he did. And yet you only FoS'd him for his lame excuse rather than the fact that he is being so passive.
I have two FoS's on him. One at the beginning of day two, and one sometime during day one. The second includes his passivity, so I can only think you mean the first. I have no idea what you mean by the bolded part. And yes, his excuse was lame. And I found that suspicious. I accuse him of passivity on the next page, so even if it wasn't part of my original reasoning for FoSing him, I still pointed it out.
So why later and not when you actually stated your suspicion on him? Because FoSing somebody and only explaining why a few days later is not town behavior if that is your real reason now. So why did you FoS him? For his excuse or for his passivity?
If it's the former then explain why you didn't think his passivity to be so suspicious at the moment, or didn't bother to mention it.
If it's the latter, then why didn't you bring it up back then?
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Bandwagoning? It's a freaking FoS. That's not a bandwagon. So basically, you are throwing around shit, because you don't want to look scummy by abandoning the quickly sinking ship that is your case.
One thing you have to learn, OB, is that bandwagonning can apply to any kind of suspicion. So yes, you totally can bandwagon with an FoS. And again: FoSing people means "I think you are scummy. I would vote you, but I'm not".
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What. Or I could just be agreeing him? Notice how TolyK's only an FoS, and Dariush is a full vote. If I had been 'blindly following' webadict as you say, I would've immediately dumped my case on Dariush/NUKE/whomever it was at the time and voted for TolyK.
Boy, stop saying "it was an FoS so it doesn't count". You said "he was next". You were pretty clear on your intent on getting him lynched eventually, your current vote be damned.
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Darvi? Why are you continuing this case? It has so very many holes in it.
There are no holes but the ones you keep beating into it.
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Mr.Person

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 3 - All Present and Accounted For [Day 2] [Need Replacement]
« Reply #320 on: September 09, 2011, 06:17:57 pm »

Pre-post warning: I think I have a few of the quote-links here mixed up. Don't freak out, they're all there, just in the wrong order.

Okay, Mr.Person, how does the curse weapon NOT make Dariush more likely scum?

The curse weapon itself does in fact make him more scummy, I was talking about Dariush not claiming the curse weapon flavor and/or not knowing or caring about what the flavor meant. I don't personally find either of those scummy.

-snip-
I would agree with you if he didn't claim doing nothing that night.If he was doing nothing how sudden glow on his weapon could be considered as blank flavor ? If he was using some item, that's something completely different. Unless you meant something else ?

I've seen really good players make these kinds of mistakes of doing no action, getting night flavor, and ignoring it. I guess it's mostly that I can see myself doing this exact same In any case, I don't care, Dariush is still really scummy irregardless of missing the flavor or not.

So you think Orangebottle is suspicious for using an original case rather than YOUR case against TolyK?
How the fuck did you come to that conclusion. I didn't have a case on TolyK until this day. And besides, OrangeBottle isn't using an original case. He's using webadict's.

How do you even get such an idea if it's impossible to be the case?

Alright, fine. You questioned Orangebottle for using evidence against TolyK that's different from the evidence against TolyK that you think is best. Is that right? Because that's the same goddamn thing as what I said, so quit nitpicking and tell me what makes OB scummy for this.

He said he didn't want to be too straightforward. Remind me, how isn't not wanting to be honest a scumtell?
So it's rather the fact that he didn't want to be "straightforward" that tipped you off? And not the fact that he didn't want to say "I don't think either is scum", possibly out of fear to come over as buddying? Because in retrospect, that's how it looks to me.

I don't understand why you asked this question because it doesn't make any sense to me why you would care which of the two reasons Orangebottle finds TolyK scummy. Specifically, why are you using this against Orangebottle? Isn't coming up with new evidence a good thing?

So your problem with Orangebottle isn't the copying of Webadict's case, it's that Webadict isn't getting credit where credit is due? Or is it more that Orangebottle is trying to pass off Webadic't scumhunting as original?
I don't really care who has credit. However OB used wuba's arguments and I wanted to find out if webadict got him convinced or if he was just piggybacking. And guess what. The answer I wanted to hear didn't happen until much later. Brought up by webadict himself. That OB failed to bring it up himself tells me that it wasn't the case.

Then what about this post right here where Orangebottle freely admits the whole case is Webadict's?

Here you engage him much further... By saying that he's passive and trying to look active by posting analysis on the D1 duel. Now where have we already seen that? Or do you have a better explanation for that?
You seem to be conveniently ignoring the fact that I'm asking him questions based on Webadict's points.

So what's Orangebottle doing that's suspicious? It sounds like you're saying Orangebottle secretly know Webadict's case is bad, but you haven't brought forth any evidence that Orangebottle thinks that way. You've said that Orangebottle never said Web's case was good. That's true, but you're ignoring the fact that OB started justifying the TolyK case with original evidence (not very much, but hey, it's something) and attempting to question to TolyK. There's a case you can push OB with, sure, I'm just saying I don't see enough here to be attempting to convince me Orangebottle is scum.

Also, another question. Why are you giving Orangebottle shit for this now yet didn't give me shit for doing the same exact thing during D1? After Webadict made a case on TolyK, I also "mysteriously" started saying TolyK was scummy, yet I don't remember you saying a word to me.

Basically, if you want to prove Orangebottle scum, you have to prove Orangebottle's case on Webadict right
Wouldn't that prove wuba to be scum, though? You meant "wrong" there right?

No, I had it right the first time. Dariush's case is that OB is dropped a good case against Webadict out of fear of getting lynched. OB's defense is that the case was in fact not good. So obviously for Dariush to be correct, he's got to prove that Dariush's case against Web was in fact good.

I suppose there are other ways Dariush could build a case, but I can't think of any offhand.
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Orangebottle

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 3 - All Present and Accounted For [Day 2] [Need Replacement]
« Reply #321 on: September 09, 2011, 06:58:39 pm »

So why later and not when you actually stated your suspicion on him? Because FoSing somebody and only explaining why a few days later is not town behavior if that is your real reason now. So why did you FoS him? For his excuse or for his passivity?
If it's the former then explain why you didn't think his passivity to be so suspicious at the moment, or didn't bother to mention it.
If it's the latter, then why didn't you bring it up back then?
Former. Because I wasn't actually looking at his posts until I saw that line.

One thing you have to learn, OB, is that bandwagonning can apply to any kind of suspicion. So yes, you totally can bandwagon with an FoS. And again: FoSing people means "I think you are scummy. I would vote you, but I'm not".
...I'll just redirect you to a previous post:
So, suspecting someone for the same reasons as someone else does is a scumtell now? Because if it is, I'm never playing this game again. That is just absurd.
Furthermore, the whole point of the game is to get the rest of the town to agree with your reasons for a lynch. Basically, to convince the entire town your target is scum.

Boy, stop saying "it was an FoS so it doesn't count". You said "he was next". You were pretty clear on your intent on getting him lynched eventually, your current vote be damned.
Except "You're next" is very vague. I could mean "You're next. I'm going to hunt you next." "You're my next night action target." "You're next on my list of people I'm sending christmas cards." "You're the next American Idol."
For clarification, I meant,"You're next. I'm going to start asking you questions after nuke's out of the picture."

So if you think that questioning is how Townies hunt scum, why are you being so opposed to questions?
I'm opposed to Darvi's questions. Because they suck. Why are you trying to make it look like I'm opposed to questions in general? Did I somehow say "I'm not going to answer any questions" or avoid people's questions on purpose? No.


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Max White

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 3 - All Present and Accounted For [Day 2] [Need Replacement]
« Reply #322 on: September 09, 2011, 07:05:11 pm »

Not only are you opposed to Darvi's questions, you are also withdrawn from asking them yourself for fear of being lynched. You have said openly that you are not pressing Wubba because you fear that is will backfire and get you lynched. Are you really so worried about being lynched that you will not press what leads you have? Right now you are just batting off questions, not doing much else. What if you see something that nobody else does, would you not bring this up just because you want to save yourself? Even against Darvi, rather than pressing him honestly about he's questions, you are insisting he stop asking them.

So tell me, what means more to you, hunting scum or staying alive?

Darvi

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 3 - All Present and Accounted For [Day 2] [Need Replacement]
« Reply #323 on: September 09, 2011, 07:19:36 pm »

Alright, fine. You questioned Orangebottle for using evidence against TolyK that's different from the evidence against TolyK that you think is best. Is that right? Because that's the same goddamn thing as what I said, so quit nitpicking and tell me what makes OB scummy for this.
Now you're putting words into my mouth. I never said that wuba's case was bad, and definitely never said that my suspicions were any better.
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I don't understand why you asked this question because it doesn't make any sense to me why you would care which of the two reasons Orangebottle finds TolyK scummy. Specifically, why are you using this against Orangebottle? Isn't coming up with new evidence a good thing?
Finding new evidence? Yes. That's not the problem. The problem is, OB aknowledged the excuse, but not the scummy behavior that was excused. Not until later. Okay so that's cleared now. And his general behavior after my vote. And him not even trying to explain why he used these arguments.
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Then what about this post right here where Orangebottle freely admits the whole case is Webadict's?
Okay, I didn't see that. Point.
Which still doesn't mean a damn thing except for that he was using his arguments. Which we knew already.
What I wanted to find out was whether he was simply bandwagonning or if he genuinely thought the case to be good. He never said anything among those lines. Instead he becomes reacts aggressively and starts bullshitting.
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So what's Orangebottle doing that's suspicious? It sounds like you're saying Orangebottle secretly know Webadict's case is bad, but you haven't brought forth any evidence that Orangebottle thinks that way. You've said that Orangebottle never said Web's case was good. That's true, but you're ignoring the fact that OB started justifying the TolyK case with original evidence (not very much, but hey, it's something) and attempting to question to TolyK. There's a case you can push OB with, sure, I'm just saying I don't see enough here to be attempting to convince me Orangebottle is scum.
Who ever said wuba's case was bad?  The thing is that his points are good to a certain extent, and OB was using them. Also, original evidence? You mean his original reason to FoS TolyK? Because that's pretty much the only thing that wuba didn't bring up that PB did. And even then there's the question why he finds the excuse scummy and not the thing that got excused itself. Nevermind, he answered that.

Also, first you ask me to tell you "how is that suspicious" and then in the same post "so why is he suspicious?". So first you imply one thing to by my reason for suspicion, and then you ask for a reason. Please, at least try to get some internal consistency into your posts, even if you refuse to stop "reinterpreting", so to say, my posts.
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Also, another question. Why are you giving Orangebottle shit for this now yet didn't give me shit for doing the same exact thing during D1? After Webadict made a case on TolyK, I also "mysteriously" started saying TolyK was scummy, yet I don't remember you saying a word to me.
The only bit where I see you stating that TolyK is scummy is here, with a "TolyK is indecisive". That and the part where you ask how Dariush can be less scummy than TolyK, but that's less of an accusation against him and more of a "why do you vote him"? OB makes an entire post that, contentwise, is similar to the one where wuba first elaborates on his vote, except with a "question" attached. Those are hardly exactly the same thing.
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No, I had it right the first time. Dariush's case is that OB is dropped a good case against Webadict out of fear of getting lynched. OB's defense is that the case was in fact not good. So obviously for Dariush to be correct, he's got to prove that Dariush's case against Web was in fact good.

I suppose there are other ways Dariush could build a case, but I can't think of any offhand.
Ah, I see. Guess that makes sense.

Former. Because I wasn't actually looking at his posts until I saw that line.
Aha.
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Furthermore, the whole point of the game is to get the rest of the town to agree with your reasons for a lynch. Basically, to convince the entire town your target is scum.
Except you never said that webadict had convinced you. That was all I was looking for. And you consistently failed to say anything of the sort.
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Except "You're next" is very vague. I could mean "You're next. I'm going to hunt you next." "You're my next night action target." "You're next on my list of people I'm sending christmas cards." "You're the next American Idol."
For clarification, I meant,"You're next. I'm going to start asking you questions after nuke's out of the picture."
Aight. So why not question him while NUKE still was around? There was nothing that kept you from engaging him further. And yet all you did was tell him to be more active and that one pretty lame question. Which I hardly call asking him questions.
Yes, I am aware that you got distracted by Dariush, but still. Nothing kept you from actually doing something relevant about the guy.
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Orangebottle

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 3 - All Present and Accounted For [Day 2] [Need Replacement]
« Reply #324 on: September 09, 2011, 07:35:57 pm »

Not only are you opposed to Darvi's questions, you are also withdrawn from asking them yourself for fear of being lynched. You have said openly that you are not pressing Wubba because you fear that is will backfire and get you lynched. Are you really so worried about being lynched that you will not press what leads you have? Right now you are just batting off questions, not doing much else. What if you see something that nobody else does, would you not bring this up just because you want to save yourself? Even against Darvi, rather than pressing him honestly about he's questions, you are insisting he stop asking them.

So tell me, what means more to you, hunting scum or staying alive?
That question's obvious. Dead town can't hunt scum.
I've asked plenty of questions. That point is immediately invalid.
I'm also pressing TolyK and Dariush, who have both failed to answer anything I ask them today.

Are you going to try to prove my trainwreck of a case on Webadict actually has some validity? Go ahead. I doubt you'll succeed, but you can try.

Though, you do make a good point in your last sentence.

Aight. So why not question him while NUKE still was around? There was nothing that kept you from engaging him further. And yet all you did was tell him to be more active and that one pretty lame question. Which I hardly call asking him questions.
Yes, I am aware that you got distracted by Dariush, but still. Nothing kept you from actually doing something relevant about the guy.
The fact that he doesn't really respond to anyone after my FoS comes to mind. It's hard to ask things of people when they won't even show up. He hasn't even responded to my FoS from the beginning of the day.

I'd like to take a moment to point out that Dariush hasn't responded to my rebuttal yet. Despite having the time to defend himself and question Mr. Person and Wuba. Probably because my case is entirely, 100% accurate and he can't stand it.

I know I promised to change my vote to TolyK today, but it'd be pretty fucking useless to cause a tie right when the day's about to end
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Max White

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 3 - All Present and Accounted For [Day 2] [Need Replacement]
« Reply #325 on: September 09, 2011, 07:46:25 pm »

Dead town can't hunt scum, but if they died for being too good at their job it is worth it. The point of being town is to do what ever it takes to find scum and lynch them, even if you get killed the next night for it. The point of scum is to blend in enough that nobody notices you, often through not having bold enough opinions to stand out.
It is pointless to say that your going to put in a half ass effort just so that you can live another day to give a half ass effort.

As for you pushing Dariush and Tolyk. Dariush has been pushed since d1, that is nothing ground breaking, and Tolyk isn't even here to push. He isn't even playing, he is just watching and hoping he somehow wins through magic.

Orangebottle

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 3 - All Present and Accounted For [Day 2] [Need Replacement]
« Reply #326 on: September 09, 2011, 07:53:11 pm »

Dead town can't hunt scum, but if they died for being too good at their job it is worth it. The point of being town is to do what ever it takes to find scum and lynch them, even if you get killed the next night for it. The point of scum is to blend in enough that nobody notices you, often through not having bold enough opinions to stand out.
It is pointless to say that your going to put in a half ass effort just so that you can live another day to give a half ass effort.
Max. You can't control the mafia's kill unless you're a member. You can control getting mislynched for pushing a half-baked case on another person. By not doing exactly that.
I don't remember saying that.
Dariush has been pushed since d1
You could literally say that about everybody in the thread. Max, are you going to call everyone scum for pressuring everyone else into answering questions?
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Max White

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 3 - All Present and Accounted For [Day 2] [Need Replacement]
« Reply #327 on: September 09, 2011, 07:58:11 pm »

You are more likely to be lynch for over conservative play than a bad case. Townies can make crap cases, and scum can put together brilliant cases.

I think your still missing the point here. It isn't about the answers you give or the questions you ask, it is about the reactions you get and the reactions you give. Right now I'm seeing Darvi trying with some poorly thought out case, but it seems he believes it. You, on the other hand, don't seem to believe your own cases enough to push them and see what happens.

And no, I'm not calling you scummy for that, when did I call you scum?

Orangebottle

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 3 - All Present and Accounted For [Day 2] [Need Replacement]
« Reply #328 on: September 09, 2011, 08:11:56 pm »

I think your still missing the point here. It isn't about the answers you give or the questions you ask, it is about the reactions you get and the reactions you give. Right now I'm seeing Darvi trying with some poorly thought out case, but it seems he believes it. You, on the other hand, don't seem to believe your own cases enough to push them and see what happens.
Case. Singular. One case.

And no, I'm not calling you scummy for that, when did I call you scum?
By my definition of scumhunting, you are surely implying it.
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Re: Roguelike Mafia 3 - All Present and Accounted For [Day 2] [Need Replacement]
« Reply #329 on: September 09, 2011, 08:12:43 pm »

By your own definition it is implied that you are scum?
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