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[NUKE9.13]

...the (intentional) lack of my response to your WoT,...

Webadict.
How is this.
Ever the right thing to do?

I admit that that is a stupid reason, but not nearly as lynch-justifiable as you might think. Assume that you are now both 1-1 and stop bickering, since YOU set up a stupid trap on Orange. Agreed?

Good. Get back to looking at people.

Webadict: Imagine, if you will, that someone refuses to answer your questions/defend against your accusations, and blatantly and in plain sight taunts you about this. You really think that would be a slap-on-the-wrist level of crime?
If so, then you truly are a strange man.

Anyway, Nuke: If you no longer suspect Orange, who is your prime suspect?

Well.
I'd say probably Dariush, at the moment, although I am forced to concede that my reasoning in this area remains clouded by emotion, so I cannot be sure.

Dariush: Org would be proud.

I'm sure he would, if he were capable of expressing such a complex emotion in disjointed three-word posts.
Org, for all of his long-lasting appeal, is not a good role model. What he does (did? I dunno) is not good for the town, and only works as scum because of his call to audacity. His game-play is focussed on the meta-goal of always looking the same.
Or something.
The point is, when you feel compelled to compare someone to Org, that is probably not a good thing.

I never said it was a townie thing to do. I said it was a weak reason to vote for someone and that you could come up with much better. If you're going to try and convince people to vote for Dariush, then you're not doing it right, as I remain unconvinced. I mean, really? Am I supposed to care that he's not answering your questions? What if your questions are stupid? All I have to base your vote off of is that he's not answering your questions. To that I say, "Why does that matter to me?"

So, yes. Your reasoning is weak. It matters nothing to me. I expect more from you.

Whaaat? Ok, sure, in some situations the questions in question are a bunch of silly RVS questions from ten pages ago, but not here. Dariush is deliberately and blatantly ignoring all serious investigation into him and his actions, depriving the town of the chance to judge the reasons for his actions. In the lack of any reasons to judge, it is best to assume for the worst. This is a thing, webadict, and not a bullshit 'well everyone else does it so it must be right' thing like RVS; this is a thing which is a real thing: people who refuse to answer (serious) questions are scummy.

You mean exactly what you did here, where you didn't even comment on what I had posted, much less respond to it?
Nice going, you scumbukkit.

My apologies. I did not realise that I had not answered your questions. Do you still wish for me to do so now?
^You see? This is how you respond if someone says you haven't answered their questions.
Now, as it happens, there are no questions in that post, or at least, I assumed the two questions present were rhetorical. As for the content, well, I considered each of the three points suitable closing remarks on the issue; everything that was to be said had been said or was obvious. To wit:
1)Technicalities are not interesting; the back and forth NO U gets nobody anywhere.
2)I have already said that I disagree with that; the 'answer' would be a recycling of things I said earlier.
3A)I did not feel the need to reply to this request. What were you going to do if I said 'no', complain about it?
3B)Rhetorical questions with an obvious rebuttal: no, its the latter. Buddying =! being nice to people, its being nice to people in order to influence their opinion. It would be a cold day in hell, I suspect, when you turned around because I was nice to you and decided I basically wasn't scum.
I hope this answers both your comments then and your question now.

Unvote. I don't think Orangebottle is scum anymore, haven't for a while, but wanted to see how others reacted to the debate first.

That isn't a trap. You'd need to be mentally deficient to start bandwagoning after the wagon's horses have been all but shot down and the horse driver's missing a few limbs.

Not to shoot myself in the foot, but yes it totally was. Not a 'hahaha got you now you are dead' trap, but I did deliberately concealed my intent in order to get more information about what other people thought. Which is a trap.

Now then.
Think needs to get back here and post his, what, fourth post of the game. Hopefully this one will have some content.
TolyK needs to stop being timid.
Dariush needs to apologize and respond to the various things he has refused to respond to. And answer one more: what do you hope to gain by making me angry?

Dariush : Missed my earlier question ?

Dariush: How nuke's onslaught on orange cand be named "quietly gliding trough the day" ? Or you had something else in mind ?

Yep, I did miss it. OB admitted to being a new player while Nuke is fairly experienced. Additionally, OB was already... softened by Max's questioning. It was a simple matter to tunnel the rest.

Clearly you missed the part where I didn't realize OB was so inexperienced, OB is not a flailing noob, and where tunnelling someone is the opposite of quietly gliding through the day, you idiot.

[Max White]

Why all the RVS questions? RVS ended a while ago. Those questions aren't helpful. Get analyzing on the current data!

Ain't RVS questions, them's scum hunt'n questions! I'm analysing, just choosing to question what I find strange rather than bold accusations, it seems to work a lot better for me.

It's enough for me. Good thing my primary interest in life isn't convincing you to do as I so. Not that I'm not trying to change your vote, I'm just way more interested in figuring out your alignment. So I'm fine with you not being convinced.

So convincing others of your opinion isn't an objective for you?

Mr.Person: I think the best way to explain Dariush's behaviour is by reading the first day of Roguelike Mafia 2. That isn't to say that he is town, just that he's town isn't smart town. He got lynched for some pretty interesting play. Still, give it a read, tell me what you think.
Webba, Dariush, Nuke & Orange: I would like to think we are gentlemen here who can play a civilised game. YOUR KILLING MY DELUSIONS! Stop that. If trying to insult each other is a strategic move, then your plans suck.

[webadict]

I never said it was a townie thing to do. I said it was a weak reason to vote for someone and that you could come up with much better. If you're going to try and convince people to vote for Dariush, then you're not doing it right, as I remain unconvinced. I mean, really? Am I supposed to care that he's not answering your questions? What if your questions are stupid? All I have to base your vote off of is that he's not answering your questions. To that I say, "Why does that matter to me?"

So, yes. Your reasoning is weak. It matters nothing to me. I expect more from you.

It's enough for me. Good thing my primary interest in life isn't convincing you to do as I so. Not that I'm not trying to change your vote, I'm just way more interested in figuring out your alignment. So I'm fine with you not being convinced.

So you agree that Dariush's behavior isn't that of a townie, yet you claim you're not convinced. Ok. So you agree that active lurking is scummy, yes? Good. Active lurking is an attempt to avoid answering questions and generally look useful. You also agree that Dariush is avoiding answering my questions. So how is Dariush's behavior better (less scummy) than TolyK's? I'm talking purely about Dariush's refusal to give me a straight answer, not Dariush's original reasoning. I'm trying to figure out your reasoning here and I'm not seeing it.

Err, that's a bit of an overexaggeration there. One particular part didn't seem like what an average townie would do. That does not mean that: 1) Dariush does townie things as a townie, 2) doing a few non-town things makes you non-town, or 3) I advocate for the continuation of such behavior.

As for why TolyK is more scummy than Dariush, there are several prominent reasons. The first is that TolyK is active-lurking far worse than Dariush, who is simply being stubborn about stupid things. TolyK made a note to show he was following his promise to post, and did so by posting details with no analyzing done. Dariush, on the other hand, is doing things in a roundabout stupid way. The second is that TolyK has since refused to vote for anyone, going even so far as to make sure his only vote was unvoted with the reasoning of it being a randomvote. Dariush has voted for someone. TolyK isn't even trying to come up with a vote. And the third is a continued lurking by TolyK despite being called out for several things. Dariush is at least attempting to fight back.

Also, I don't like NUKE's reasoning very much on Dariush, which has caused a negative reaction in me for Dariush's lynch. And I'm pretty sure TolyK is just waiting for someone to pounce on me in order to bandwagon.

And it really IS your job to convince people. See, if you don't convince people you're right, you won't get something done.

It is sort of like a dogsled. If there is no one leading them, they'll go nowhere. If they go in a bunch of different directions, they'll go nowhere. If you get a majority of them to go one way, then you start moving in that direction. So, yes. Your job is to convince me or listen to me, and my job is to convince you and to show you why I think your opinion is wrong.

However, I do have a good point in that you're taking a question aimed at you and ignoring it (IE being defensive). How exactly is not answering questions and bragging about it not "lynch justifiable"? That's kind of scummy since townies should be able to answer all questons posed at them due to forming a coherent opinion. Lynching the guy who can't form the coherent opinion is the very definition of the guy to lynch. Hell, you're voting TolyK because TolyK has trouble forming an opinion in the form of never forming one to begin with. I'm voting Dariush for lack of opinion due to not having one he can justify and also for not answering questions aimed at him. How is TolyK scum and Dariush not scum? Your stance here makes no sense, and when NUKE asks you to explain it, you just say "You're wrong, now both of you shut up" without explaining why NUKE is wrong to think that Dariush intentionally not answering a WoT is scummy. That's pretty scummy of Dariush. You can't attack NUKE for doing something stupid and acting like it's smart while yourself doing something stupid and acting like it's smart. That's what Dariush did, literally. So please, explain why exactly Dariush isn't lynch-worthy after not answering my questions, not answering NUKE's questions, and having no reason whatsoever for voting NUKE?

Also, good explaination for why NUKE and Dariush should stop talking.

I never said for them to both shut up. I said they need to stop being stupid to each other. As in, Dariush needs to be more talkative, and NUKE needs to be less angry. I suppose that was lost in there somewhere.

And @NUKE: Yeah, he's being stupid. But, if you've got the majority of votes on you, then either you're doing it wrong, or you're being more stupid. Fix it.

And Extend. I would really like to get TolyK lynched, as he's showing little care for posting.

[Toaster]

Vote Count:

Darvi: 
Think0028: 
Mr.Person: 
Orangebottle:
Dariush:  Mr.Person, NUKE9.13
NUKE9.13:  Orangebottle, Dariush, Think0028, Max White
Simple: 
Max White: 
Webadict: 
TolyK:  Webadict, Simple

Not Voting:  TolyK, Darvi

Day 1 will last until Wednesday 8/31 at 3 PM EST:  ~3 hours from now.


There is one vote for an extension.  Four needed to extend.

[Simple]

extend! I'm against this idiotic rage lynching.

Max White,Think: I'm most interested in your reasons to vote Nuke. Some reminder ?

-snip-

Also, why isn't pushing for a NUKE lynch pro-town?

And by that you mean? I don't see how that's related.

You said I was pushing for a lynch. It was a pro-town lynch. NUKE has only succeeded in getting a bunch of people to jump on and attack him, which distracts them from their scumhunting.

-snip-

So why are you voting him if that only distracts "people"( who exactly?) from scumhunting ? That sounds like you don't believe attacking him is good idea. Unless your vote and attack are not about scumhunting.

Dariush : Missed my earlier question ?

Dariush: How nuke's onslaught on orange cand be named "quietly gliding trough the day" ? Or you had something else in mind ?

Yep, I did miss it. OB admitted to being a new player while Nuke is fairly experienced. Additionally, OB was already... softened by Max's questioning. It was a simple matter to tunnel the rest.

How that answers my question ? You honestly believe that tunneling a newbie is zero risk tactic ?

[Mr.Person]

Welp, there went my next hour. Thanks, jerk.

Extend so I might have a chance to get back here and post.

[Toaster]

One more vote needed to extend.

[NUKE9.13]

I swear to goodness this is not just to save my own head:
extend
I still want to get responses, dammit. I don't want to die before getting my responses.

And @NUKE: Yeah, he's being stupid. But, if you've got the majority of votes on you, then either you're doing it wrong, or you're being more stupid. Fix it.

Yeah, thinking I could jump right into being my old self after a one-year hiatus may have been a tad optimistic. I maintain that I have good reasons for my actions and reasonable responses to the various arguments laid against me, and that on reasoned reflection, most of the people voting for me would reconsider. Apparently I am delusional.

Max White,Think: I'm most interested in your reasons to vote Nuke. Some reminder ?

Allow me:

NUKE9.13: Why do you keep insisting on people making a decision about who's right and wrong in your debate with Orangebottle? Why is it your #1 go-to question for everyone? Hounding people to make a decision right away and draw them away from their own trains of thought is an awfully scummy thing to do. What information could it give you about the scumminess of others?

I had the gall to ask him a question which he didn't want to answer.

Max has pretty much been hounding me ever since I started on Orangebottle. The straw that broke the camel's back, in this case, appears to have been me asking people who was right between me and Orange, which he took as me measuring town opinion so that I could follow it blindly.
(Here)

[Toaster]

Day has been extended.

Day 1 will last until Thursday 9/1 at 11 PM EST.

[Mr.Person]

Why does my original reasoning concern you? It was a randomvote because of his rant about RVS, which he overdefended, thus converting it to the real vote.

Also, why the fuck are you so commited to seeing me lynched? Yes, I missed your questions. Now come here and tell me to my face that my reasons for Nuke vote are bullshit. My current reasons, mind you, not the ones from RVS.

Was that so fucking hard to say? Why the HELL did you wait until NOW to say this after I asked you three goddamn times? Not that it matters because I asked the wrong question, it seems. Yes, embarassing, I know. what I meant was that your bullshit is this post right here:

Darvi: Who do you think is right in the debate NUKE VS. Orange, and why?
TolyK: Same question.

Wow, this is the most thought-out and the most sensible line of questioning ever! Don't you have any better way of scumhunting than asking 'do you think I'm scum?'?

-snip for being irrelevant-

3)Wait, what? You are calling me using ALLCAPS a scumtell now? Guy, seriously. It is a thing I do. How is it scummy?

Because that implies you can't keep calm demeanor, ergo you're deeply touched by accusations directed at you, ergo you're scum.

4)Why is my case on Orange bullshit? Tell me.

...you sure like forcing people to waste walls of text and tons of time on you, don't you?... Fine, whatever.

Because in a stunning display of hipocrisy you accused him of feeling pressured by Max's questions DESPITE INSANELY OVERREEACTING YOURSELF!!!

Because you later explained to Max how Orangebottle was supposed to react to his questions.

Because your primary case on him, it seems, is that he defended the RVS which OBVIOUSLY IS SO FUCKING INTOLERABLE THAT IT'S WORTH A VOTE!!!!!!!

Because... oh wait, that's your entire case. And every single point of it is bullshit.

In which you claim NUKE's scumhunting is lazy. Which it is, but that's not really the reason that this line of questioning is wrong. The problem here has much more to do with the fact "pick between me or him" type statements are really, really bad for the town. So while you did pick out something scummy NUKE did, you missing something absurdly obvious makes me think you're not actually reading things that closely.

If you think NUKE is actually that angry, you're retarded. Seriously. So clearly you're just misrepresenting facts here or something.

You then complain about having to explain your reasoning. Right, because the town should CLEARLY be grumbling about this. Oh wait, it's the scum who can't explain themselves, right.

Then perhaps the insane overeacting is... a joke? Whoooo, blew your mind didn't I? I don't think you're even really reading NUKE's posts at all if you're somehow missing out on this.

There's nothing wrong whatsoever about one player having an opinion about a player's response to a third player's question. I don't even know what you're pretending here, but clearly it's not the same mafia game we all play. Seriously, are you trying to say NUKE is scummy because he's interpreting another player's question? That's bullshit of the highest calibre.

Considering you haven't gone through every point of NUKE's argument, I see no reasons to actually be voting NUKE based on what you've posted. THAT'S why I'm voting you. Your original reasonings HERE are bullshit. You not responding to ME is bullshit. You not responding to NUKE is triple bullshit both because you did it, it was intentional and you tried to use it as a tactic to make NUKE appear scummier. Yes, let's act anti-town! Brilliant! That's retarded. In fact, that bit where you "intentionally didn't respond to NUKE's WoT" is alone enough of a reason to lynch you. Granted, you have a history of being retarded like in Roguelike 2, but that's NOT a free pass. Well, it's a free pass to death, but that's something you might like to avoid I assume. Well except you're an idiot, so I dunno what you want to do. Maybe death is fun for morons, I wouldn't know.

It's enough for me. Good thing my primary interest in life isn't convincing you to do as I so. Not that I'm not trying to change your vote, I'm just way more interested in figuring out your alignment. So I'm fine with you not being convinced.

So convincing others of your opinion isn't an objective for you?

Not really, no. I need to get alignments first. I'll try to get everyone to vote my way, sure, but not at the expense of scumhunting.

Of course, if I think you guys are lynching a townie, I'll say something. NUKE? He's acting pretty scummy. I can swallow a NUKE lynch.

Mr.Person: I think the best way to explain Dariush's behaviour is by reading the first day of Roguelike Mafia 2. That isn't to say that he is town, just that he's town isn't smart town. He got lynched for some pretty interesting play. Still, give it a read, tell me what you think.

So he's a habitual idiot. Ok. That doesn't change shit, frankly. We CANNOT tolerate shitty play as "normal" or "within meta" like we did with Org. That is bad. I don't care how many times we lynch town-retarded Dariush, eventually he either stops signing up or wises up. But a player actively working against the town? No. That shit doesn't fly around these parts.

In RL2, I thought Dariush was acting pretty good up until he voted kilakan. I saw more than a few people voting him because he was acting like a dick. I learned a LONG time ago not to do that after lynching town-Webadict for that exact reason. Of course once he claimed Jester, he was as good as dead. Being flippant was also not a good move, of course.

I never said it was a townie thing to do. I said it was a weak reason to vote for someone and that you could come up with much better. If you're going to try and convince people to vote for Dariush, then you're not doing it right, as I remain unconvinced. I mean, really? Am I supposed to care that he's not answering your questions? What if your questions are stupid? All I have to base your vote off of is that he's not answering your questions. To that I say, "Why does that matter to me?"

So, yes. Your reasoning is weak. It matters nothing to me. I expect more from you.

It's enough for me. Good thing my primary interest in life isn't convincing you to do as I so. Not that I'm not trying to change your vote, I'm just way more interested in figuring out your alignment. So I'm fine with you not being convinced.

So you agree that Dariush's behavior isn't that of a townie, yet you claim you're not convinced. Ok. So you agree that active lurking is scummy, yes? Good. Active lurking is an attempt to avoid answering questions and generally look useful. You also agree that Dariush is avoiding answering my questions. So how is Dariush's behavior better (less scummy) than TolyK's? I'm talking purely about Dariush's refusal to give me a straight answer, not Dariush's original reasoning. I'm trying to figure out your reasoning here and I'm not seeing it.

Err, that's a bit of an overexaggeration there. One particular part didn't seem like what an average townie would do. That does not mean that: 1) Dariush does townie things as a townie, 2) doing a few non-town things makes you non-town, or 3) I advocate for the continuation of such behavior.

As for why TolyK is more scummy than Dariush, there are several prominent reasons. The first is that TolyK is active-lurking far worse than Dariush, who is simply being stubborn about stupid things. TolyK made a note to show he was following his promise to post, and did so by posting details with no analyzing done. Dariush, on the other hand, is doing things in a roundabout stupid way. The second is that TolyK has since refused to vote for anyone, going even so far as to make sure his only vote was unvoted with the reasoning of it being a randomvote. Dariush has voted for someone. TolyK isn't even trying to come up with a vote. And the third is a continued lurking by TolyK despite being called out for several things. Dariush is at least attempting to fight back.

Also, I don't like NUKE's reasoning very much on Dariush, which has caused a negative reaction in me for Dariush's lynch. And I'm pretty sure TolyK is just waiting for someone to pounce on me in order to bandwagon.

And it really IS your job to convince people. See, if you don't convince people you're right, you won't get something done.

It is sort of like a dogsled. If there is no one leading them, they'll go nowhere. If they go in a bunch of different directions, they'll go nowhere. If you get a majority of them to go one way, then you start moving in that direction. So, yes. Your job is to convince me or listen to me, and my job is to convince you and to show you why I think your opinion is wrong.

Alright, you heard it here, folks. Refusal to answer a WoT as a tactic is ok. Webadict said it. Tolerance here = acceptance because you damn well KNOW Dariush will continue to pull this bullshit if we allow it. Look, these actions are scummy. If ANYBODY else did them, you'd be all over Dariush, yes? So why allow Dariush special treatment? I dunno, I can't see how a towny Dariush would think not answering questions as a tactic is ok. Granted, I can't see how Dariush would think claiming jester as a townie is ok, but that's no reason to lower our standards. Dariush fucking up is Dariush fucking up. Us allowing him to fuck means he's going to fuck up more in the future. Have fun reading a guy who refuses to answer your questions to try to make you mad.

But alright, fine. So Webadict. Let's just say for argument's sake I decided to not answer your WoT here. How would you respond?

[webadict]

@Mr.Person: If you're going to be an idiot, then I'll treat you like one.

1. I NEVER SAID it was okay not to respond to WoTs. I said I believe Dariush is town. That doesn't make it okay not to answer things, and I won't feel bad if he continues to do it and gets lynched. But I won't be voting for him, because I don't think he's scum.
2. What is your problem? Seriously, you're putting words into my mouth. It's not cool. And you've continually done it for a while.
3. If I'm advocating not answering, then you're advocating activelurking, sidelining, and passiveness.
4. Stop policy lynching as an excuse to not scumhunt.

[Think0028]

Sorry guys, I'm gonna need a replace. College has started up again and my free time has utterly evaporated. To be fair, I'll vote extend.

[Max White]

Max White,Think: I'm most interested in your reasons to vote Nuke. Some reminder ?

Well firstly there was he's blatant bandwagon onto Orange with second hand evidence. This was enough to grab my attention.
Then there was him trying to seek approval, or split the town, or something insane with he's Nuke vs. Orange questions. That raised an eyebrow.
And to top is all, he admitted to changing he's story. He lied to us, and the only thing that we have to gauge if he was lying now or then is to save he's sorry ass. Either way he cracked under the pressure.

Also, and this is wandering the line between accusation and speculation, he may have been buddying a little. When he first charged into this game, he was all 'You kids, get off my lawn!', but as time has gone on he has become a lot more polite, well, except to Dariush. Not sure if this is normal Nuke, and he really does open games with insane ranting, or if he thinks acting nice will help him.

Also, this is some time after my vote, but it is now part of the reason.

Max White,Think: I'm most interested in your reasons to vote Nuke. Some reminder ?

Allow me:

This does not help in the slightness. Not only does this look like a form of buddying, but he is intercepting questions. You don't do that. If he was town, why wasn't he on the edge of he's seat to hear my reasoning and see if I made any mistakes? This is question tampering to buddy up to the people attacking him.

Not really, no. I need to get alignments first. I'll try to get everyone to vote my way, sure, but not at the expense of scumhunting.

Of course, if I think you guys are lynching a townie, I'll say something. NUKE? He's acting pretty scummy. I can swallow a NUKE lynch.

Do you believe you have Dariush's alignment?

[Mr.Person]

Before anybody even thinks about it, yes I will answer Webadict's WoT. In a little bit, I don't really have time at the moment. Later today.

[webadict]

Before anybody even thinks about it, yes I will answer Webadict's WoT. In a little bit, I don't really have time at the moment. Later today.

Congratulations. Are you done? Um... let me guess... you're still going to throw a temper tantrum? Go ahead and smash your head on the floor. I literally could care less.

You've done nothing to try and prove Dariush is scummier than TolyK, and I have shown in many ways why TolyK is a better lynch, and your response has been to act like a child.

Why so uncharacteristically insane, Mr.Person?