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[Sowelu]

I am a huge booster for realtime-with-pause, so you don't get bullshit like item-tossing relays, or ten different guys leaning in to shoot through the same door on a single turn, or having one guy spend his whole turn sprinting ahead to uncover an enemy, then have another guy spend his whole turn setting up to shoot at the newly-discovered guy.  With AI that can't handle it, yeah it's easier, but in terms of actual gameplay mechanics, it does make things legitimately harder.

Also, suppression fire is a lot more realistic (oh hey there really are bullets flying over my head when I'm doing stuff), and it's just plain cool to see that many bullets in the air at one time anyway.  :V

Sounds like their other changes are very...sub-optimal to say the least, though.

[Funk]

my views:
realtime-with-pause, great as it stops all the supid thing that trun based has.
 for the base of the game .13 has a lot of things that the hard core want to have.
dito IOV(A.K. every gun made past 1945).

hell if i was makeing this game id just flat out ask the .13 guys how thay did it.
and for the games shake have settings for the more complex things.

[LoSboccacc]

I've seen some video and they seem to haved hired merc straight out the stoormtrooper firing academy

However a youtube comment reminded me of another game I shoud give another try: shadow company.

[612DwarfAvenue]

Guys. Guys.

If y'all want gameplay like the original JA games, then play the original JA games. You haven't played BiA yet, don't start bashing it until you've played through it.


Personally, i find the change to real-time to be a good thing, the removal of the Fog of War makes alotta sense realism-wise (does it still have line-of-sight, though?), and as long as there's lots of modding potential you can count on the community to fill in the gaps.

[Vibhor]

Guys. Guys.

If y'all want gameplay like the original JA games, then play the original JA games. You haven't played BiA yet, don't start bashing it until you've played through it.

Yeah, about that...
The old games, as the name suggests, old. They cannot take the full advantage of the current gen technology. There will be no improvement in the gameplay mechanics any more. The sequel would be the only hope for improvement but now they are completely changing the mechanics instead of improving the old ones. Add to that the people who are calling turn based strategy inherently flawed, we are not going to see a good turn based strategy in a very long time.

[Goron]

Guys. Guys.

If y'all want gameplay like the original JA games, then play the original JA games. You haven't played BiA yet, don't start bashing it until you've played through it.

Yeah, about that...
The old games, as the name suggests, old. They cannot take the full advantage of the current gen technology. There will be no improvement in the gameplay mechanics any more. The sequel would be the only hope for improvement but now they are completely changing the mechanics instead of improving the old ones. Add to that the people who are calling turn based strategy inherently flawed, we are not going to see a good turn based strategy in a very long time.

I would argue that the new game is improving game mechanics. In my opinion the change to (a proper handling of real time) is an improvement. Just like Xcom Apoc added a real time element as an improvement to the turn based precursors. Mind you, Xcom made real time optional, that way there was a choice for those that desperately wanted to stick to the 'old' system.

[Ozyton]

Realtime may be an improvement, but hax vision cheats on everybody...?

I wonder if the enemies will be using hax vision cheats too...

[woose1]

Maybe this is just hearsay, but I heard that they've added fog of war, but the presentation builds don't have them yet. In the original outline for the game, the inside of buildings would be blacked out, but there'd be no vision obstruction outside during the day.

[Ozyton]

Being able to use bushes and objects/fences/etc for concealment and cover would have been nice though.

Being able to see from one side of the map to the other with no obstructions (looking down a road or across a field, for example) is fine by me. Looking across the map through a jungle... not so much.

If they did add interiors of buildings being blacked out, at least that's one small consolation.

[LoSboccacc]

suddenly shadow is not the awesomest merc 

[Vibhor]

Guys. Guys.

If y'all want gameplay like the original JA games, then play the original JA games. You haven't played BiA yet, don't start bashing it until you've played through it.

Yeah, about that...
The old games, as the name suggests, old. They cannot take the full advantage of the current gen technology. There will be no improvement in the gameplay mechanics any more. The sequel would be the only hope for improvement but now they are completely changing the mechanics instead of improving the old ones. Add to that the people who are calling turn based strategy inherently flawed, we are not going to see a good turn based strategy in a very long time.

I would argue that the new game is improving game mechanics. In my opinion the change to (a proper handling of real time) is an improvement. Just like Xcom Apoc added a real time element as an improvement to the turn based precursors. Mind you, Xcom made real time optional, that way there was a choice for those that desperately wanted to stick to the 'old' system.

Actually, the real time was not an improvement. It detracted from the whole risky warfare theme. The soldiers were no longer expendable units. They could take bazillion shots before dieing. Even though real time was optional, the game was clearly made with that feature in mind. The maps were huge,making turn based travels a chore,and both aliens and humans took more hits to die(humans moreso),to compensate the lack of control in real time.
While real time combat may seem realistic, it removes the very presence of realism. One feature that is on top of my mind is bleeding. JA2 had a *realistic* damage counter. There was a chance that you would start bleeding and would need a med pack for healing. While bleeding you took 1 or 2 points of damage every turn depending upon the severity of the wound. This thing can only be manageable in turn based system. In a real time system it gets very hectic as the time you would be healing yourself, dozens of enemies would be firing at you, real time. This problem could be fixed by adding a dedicated medic to your team but that brings another problem. The lack of one man armying. In a real time system you would not be able to kill 6 ill equipped people with one master assassin(explosives not withstanding). No matter what you do they will always have the benefit of number. A direct encounter would leave your soldier wounded and since there is no such thing as fog of war as of yet all the enemies would know your exact location(even if you are sniping).

TL;DR Switching to real time from turn based is not an improvement. Its a drastic change. That would be like saying that if Super Mario Brothers was a puzzle game instead of a platformer then it would be a better game. It is all about personal preference and there is no objective improvement.

[LoSboccacc]

I agree that apocalypse real time was bad (=not of my liking, for those easily offended by opinions)

but real time with pause give us very detailed, complex and realistic systems too,
but you have to search them out of context, however:
rainbow six was egregious, with the only limit that you had to control one of the guy from first person.

[Goron]

Actually, the real time was not an improvement. It detracted from the whole risky warfare theme. The soldiers were no longer expendable units. They could take bazillion shots before dieing. Even though real time was optional, the game was clearly made with that feature in mind. The maps were huge,making turn based travels a chore,and both aliens and humans took more hits to die(humans moreso),to compensate the lack of control in real time.
While real time combat may seem realistic, it removes the very presence of realism. One feature that is on top of my mind is bleeding. JA2 had a *realistic* damage counter. There was a chance that you would start bleeding and would need a med pack for healing. While bleeding you took 1 or 2 points of damage every turn depending upon the severity of the wound. This thing can only be manageable in turn based system. In a real time system it gets very hectic as the time you would be healing yourself, dozens of enemies would be firing at you, real time. This problem could be fixed by adding a dedicated medic to your team but that brings another problem. The lack of one man armying. In a real time system you would not be able to kill 6 ill equipped people with one master assassin(explosives not withstanding). No matter what you do they will always have the benefit of number. A direct encounter would leave your soldier wounded and since there is no such thing as fog of war as of yet all the enemies would know your exact location(even if you are sniping).

TL;DR Switching to real time from turn based is not an improvement. Its a drastic change. That would be like saying that if Super Mario Brothers was a puzzle game instead of a platformer then it would be a better game. It is all about personal preference and there is no objective improvement.

You never actually played Apoc in real time mode, did you? You do know it pauses, right?
Not one of your 'arguments' holds any weight given the fact you don't even know how the game works (that your you didn't know the game paused and slowed down). What is the difference between losing 2 hitpoints every 'turn' vs losing two hit points every 'second'? I can pause every two seconds, heck, I can pause every quarter second and reissue orders. In turn based bleeding and wounds tend to be a non-issue: 'oh, i got shot? ok, I'll just use my turn to safely get behind cover and and initiate healing without any risk at all' or 'I'll use my turn to kill the enemy with other units, and heal my guy safely in place'. In realtime you can continue to take fire while retreating and trying to killt he opponent actually takes time during which your guy can be shot again and bleed more.
And the fact alone that you declare turn based to be more realistic, then complain that real time does not allow 'one man armying' just ruins your credibility.
Once again, it is evident you have never ACTUALLY played (meaning put time into) a real time with pause game, such as real time Xcom Apoc or 7.62 High Calibre or the likes.
Once again:

Real Time with Smart Pause does not equal RTS, for the record.

I have never issued an order in Xcom Apoc while the game was unpaused. Not once. I am pausing every few seconds at the longest, and every fraction of a second during battle. 7.62's awesome configurable autopause (aka Smart Pause) was great for that reason. Try looking down and finding the space bar key on your keyboard, then use that while playing xcom apoc in realtime mode and tell me'it gets very hectic'.
And one last time, just to be clear:

Real Time with Smart Pause does not equal RTS, for the record.

[Sowelu]

Guys, guys, chill.  We need to agree to disagree on the whole RT+P thing.  It can (and sometimes has been) done well, and it can (and sometimes has been) done poorly.  Genres are not just one thing or another.  You can have an easy, non-lethal turn based game, and you can have an extremely lethal RT+P game.  You can have good and bad games in any genre.  It may be possible to keep all the essentials and turn out a good game on its own merits, but they also might throw away the essentials and put out a bad game, regardless of their engine choice.

[woose1]

It's like... a box of chocolates. One might say.