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Author Topic: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim  (Read 1615606 times)

Vattic

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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #8250 on: February 18, 2013, 03:08:30 pm »

I suppose you could keep the numbers as parts of the game logic, but hide them from the player, but I don't really see what that would accomplish, besides keeping information from the player. You need to know how good your character is at hitting things with swords, and how good a sword he owns, to make informed decisions about what you should be doing. Should you be fighting this troll, or running away screaming?
While the numbers work as milestones to your characters growth I don't think they tell you if you'll be able to kill a troll. You only get a feel for what the numbers mean by trying to fight more powerful monsters. From a RP perspective why would your character know he was strong enough to fight a troll before fighting one?
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umiman

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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #8251 on: February 18, 2013, 03:41:55 pm »

I think the only reason for that is because you aren't given the numbers for the troll.

But yeah that makes sense.

WillowLuman

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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #8252 on: February 18, 2013, 03:56:23 pm »

I actually really like Skyrim's magic, though I still regret the loss of spellmaking. Mages in oblivion were incredibly underpowered, enchanting being the only powerful thing they could do. The enemies gained in hitpoints and resistances much faster that a mage could gain in magical damage or magicka efficiency. Morrowind, in contrast, would let you become godlike if you made it past initial rockiness in magic.
What? Magic in Oblivion was OP, I mean, not compared to Morrowind but considered by itself, it was extremely broken. All you had to do was spell stack. Even at high levels on 100% difficulty spell-stacking + alchemy is essentially an instant win in Oblivion. In contrast, destruction in particular is extremely underpowered in Skyrim and is essentially useless for playing on Master difficulty. Comparing any game to Morrowind and saying it is underpowered is kind of crazy since Morrowind has the most broken magic system in any game I've ever played by a ridiculous margin.

I'm not saying Oblivion's magic is underpowered compared to Morrowind, I'm saying it's underpowered compared to Skyrim. Morrowind's magic is overpowered compared to Skyrim. I was comparing both of them to Skyrim. By spellstacking do you mean casting a weakness spell then casting the damage one? I did that by creating ridiculously powerful enchanted maces with my mage.

Well, I thought Oblivion mages were way underpowered, but that's just my experience and I must have been doing something wrong. I'd say that you must be doing something wrong is Skyrim, though, since with a few vanilla items you can have practically no-cost destruction spells, which gets OP'd pretty fast considering the higher level destruction spells like fireball and chain lightning, and blizzard goes through walls and cover. And it seems combining enchanting and alchemy creates the most overpowered things in whatever TES game has them. Divines bless "shouts recharge 2070% faster" after doing the fortify resoration glitch :D

Number crunching RPG's? Ever tried Wizardry? If you thought Daggerfall and Morrowind have numbers, hoo boy, wait till you see Wizardry. Still fun though.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #8253 on: February 18, 2013, 03:59:08 pm »

I would play Requim, but I don't have money for any Skyrim DLC...and to be honest...I greatly prefer the better (imo) vampire/werewolf overhauls that have already been made. So I probably just won't ever get it.

That and it is so hard to play any overhaul that doesn't provide such a huge perk tree that Skyrim Redone has. Requim does sound good, but I don't think I could play with so less amount of perks that the former mod has.

Both still got ported to Dawnguard, but SkyRE seems far more finished in its non-dawnguard version than Requim does.
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WillowLuman

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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #8254 on: February 18, 2013, 04:27:17 pm »

I would play Requim, but I don't have money for any Skyrim DLC...and to be honest...I greatly prefer the better (imo) vampire/werewolf overhauls that have already been made. So I probably just won't ever get it.

That and it is so hard to play any overhaul that doesn't provide such a huge perk tree that Skyrim Redone has. Requim does sound good, but I don't think I could play with so less amount of perks that the former mod has.

Both still got ported to Dawnguard, but SkyRE seems far more finished in its non-dawnguard version than Requim does.

But what those mods don't have is a giant magma-spewing centurion at the end of a treasure hunt.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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alexandertnt

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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #8255 on: February 18, 2013, 07:47:50 pm »

Well, the first thing that pops to my mind when I hear "RPG" is Baldur's Gate, which was based on pen-and-paper Dungeons and Dragons, and obviously had you rolling virtual dice all the fucking time. If you threw a 20-sided die, you could only miss a huge pile of 20-sided dice on a natural 1. From this background, it's kind of odd to think that RPGs should make the numbers less of a thing because, well, I literally equate "RPG" with the numbers. Character skill is independent in some ways of player skill, and that character skill is internally represented as a number.

I suppose you could keep the numbers as parts of the game logic, but hide them from the player, but I don't really see what that would accomplish, besides keeping information from the player. You need to know how good your character is at hitting things with swords, and how good a sword he owns, to make informed decisions about what you should be doing. Should you be fighting this troll, or running away screaming?
[/quote]

I could understand why someone would equate RPG's with numbers given the origins of RPG's, and thats completely fine. But for me, it gives no suspension of disbelief since I cannot equate these arbitary numbers with my character. I understand that Character skill will be indepentant of player skill to an extent, and I am not arguing for action-RPG's per se, but by knowing the exact values of my "character", I see an instanced object with a few properties translating its position around in 3d space. Or a walking, talking spreadsheet with a 3d model attached. I do not see a character.

I would not expect them to remove numbers as part of internal game logic - its a computer and at some point it will all translate to precise values. However, if I am given a more descriptive, "qualitative" view of my character (much like I have of myself) my character will become more believable and I will be more able to seperate it from the implementation and technical stuff of the game, making the world more believable.

You do need to know how good your character is at something, but you do not need to know the precise measurement of this (the same measurement that goes through the simple game logic to compute damage). Considering you did not know the statistics for that troll even in a P&P game, than you would still have to run up to it and see if you can kill it. You would do the same in my make-believe game, however instead of being able to record exact statistics, you would "get a feel" for your characters strength and it would allow me to continue to seperate my character from the cold, robotic logic of the computer.

I want an RPG with charaters that are more than programming objects. I suppose I do not want realism per se, I would want games to be less "computery" about things.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #8256 on: February 18, 2013, 09:27:13 pm »

Well, that's pretty damn hard.

pisskop

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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #8257 on: February 19, 2013, 12:01:43 am »

:)

While the subjects of stats and numbers is here.

Skyrim didn't hide them, it got rid of them altogether.  Rather it simply took all those variables and consoladated them into one-size fits all properties.  Not even race specific variations!  No inherent weakness.

Even height variations got the boot.  You know how disheartening it is to look down at a wood elf and see his naval?  Or an Altmer simply staring you in the eyes with conptemt instead of down upon you?  Upon hearing of the Dominion I thought "Oh, cool, the midget archers, Kitty Kats, and lanky mages all on one side".  After playing: :'( .
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WillowLuman

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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #8258 on: February 19, 2013, 12:09:31 am »

There seems to be a lot of height variation between individual people, but bosmer seem shorter on average.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #8259 on: February 19, 2013, 12:44:36 am »

There is height variation in Skyrim. It's the reason why I gave up on my Imperial and Bosmer characters, they're constantly looking up at people.

Tellemurius

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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #8260 on: February 19, 2013, 02:48:41 am »

There is height variation in Skyrim. It's the reason why I gave up on my Imperial and Bosmer characters, they're constantly looking up at people.
i dunno about imperial, they are a wee bit shorter than a nord, a breton would be the shortest human

forsaken1111

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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #8261 on: February 19, 2013, 06:48:42 am »

While the subjects of stats and numbers is here.

Skyrim didn't hide them, it got rid of them altogether.  Rather it simply took all those variables and consoladated them into one-size fits all properties.  Not even race specific variations!  No inherent weakness.
I prefer Skyrim's system to morrowind's. At least when I see an arrow hit a guy, it really does hit rather than 'miss' because some roll said so. My skill as a player influences the game a bit.
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Dutchling

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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #8262 on: February 19, 2013, 06:59:08 am »

It would have been better if there was no player skill involved at all when you try shooting people in Morrowind*. That way the game would not punish you doubly for starting out as an archer.

*Ranged combat depend on player skill and melee combat depend on character skill would be even worse imo.
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The Darkling Wolf

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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #8263 on: February 19, 2013, 07:00:23 am »

While the subjects of stats and numbers is here.

Skyrim didn't hide them, it got rid of them altogether.  Rather it simply took all those variables and consoladated them into one-size fits all properties.  Not even race specific variations!  No inherent weakness.
I prefer Skyrim's system to morrowind's. At least when I see an arrow hit a guy, it really does hit rather than 'miss' because some roll said so. My skill as a player influences the game a bit.
How dare you say that! I'm going to punch you in the face three hundred times until one of them actually gets a success roll and hurts you!
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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #8264 on: February 19, 2013, 07:02:33 am »

While the subjects of stats and numbers is here.

Skyrim didn't hide them, it got rid of them altogether.  Rather it simply took all those variables and consoladated them into one-size fits all properties.  Not even race specific variations!  No inherent weakness.
I prefer Skyrim's system to morrowind's. At least when I see an arrow hit a guy, it really does hit rather than 'miss' because some roll said so. My skill as a player influences the game a bit.
How dare you say that! I'm going to punch you in the face three hundred times until one of them actually gets a success roll and hurts you!
Sorry d00d, I used my spell of +1000 athletics and jumped a million miles. You can't catch me. Also I'm wearing chameleon 100% armor, so you can't even see me.

Morrowind was so ridiculously broken and OP its wasn't even funny.
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