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Author Topic: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim  (Read 1623756 times)

Biag

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3915 on: December 21, 2011, 10:00:52 pm »

I was never under the impression that the Elder Scrolls series was meant to be or feel nonlinear. I've got thirty hours logged, and I'm expecting I'll get at least twice that much by the time I'm finished with this game- isn't that enough? There is so much to do in this game. Honestly the only thing that really bothers me is that I'm going to get level-capped long before I unlock every perk. A sandbox doesn't have to be nonlinear, just like a nonlinear game doesn't have to be a sandbox.
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Flying Dice

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3916 on: December 21, 2011, 10:35:30 pm »

I'm complaining more about the motherfu-ARGLEBLARGLE-sential NPCs".

Actually, I think the immortal NPC is not just protection against the player, it's protection against themselves. It's incredibly easy for NPCs to get into a fight even when you didn't do anything wrong. They walk around all over the place, too, straight into the morning breath of some dragon that landed on the local Inn to loudly ask for directions. It's also rather easy to accidentally kill the wrong NPC when you're yelling directions at the poor lost dragon, so immortality against other NPCs only wouldn't work. Even accidentally dropping a dagger can spark a fight.

NPCs in Morrowind hardly moved about or faced random monster attacks, if anything happened it was the player's fault.

Skyrim's solution is a bit crude, but it gets the job done. It's a bit like how the first 3D games looked horrible compared to 2D sprites. (And sometimes still do) Once the technology is perfected, we'll have quests that adapt to replace missing actors.

The thing is, they've already shown that they can have NPCs that aren't going to be affected by this with the companions, who can only be killed by players, and by incredible streaks of bad luck with AoE attacks and damage over time. I have no doubt that they could make NPCs that are important to major quests functionally immortal to everything but the player, with not very much effort. The only change that would need to be made would be something that prevents those certain NPCs from taking damage from any source other than the player while in their healing trance state. How is this not a better solution than just slapping immortality on every character associated with any quest longer than "go here, kill these bandits"?

In regards to the player accidentally killing an NPC: that is part of the challenge. You can't blindly spray fireballs or hack away at a crowd of people unless you're willing to face the consequences of your actions. If you accidentally kill a quest-central NPC, well, then you have a choice. You can reload (if you had any sense, your last save probably isn't too long ago; big fight sequences are telegraphed pretty obviously ahead of time), or you can keep playing on the character, accepting that the quest won't be available, if you prefer to RP like that.

Basically, anything that is taking power away from the player (and in some cases, from random chance) in order to prevent the >player< from "screwing up" (In other words, deviating from the linear plot of the quests) >their< game is going to be negative, so long as it isn't something where it is preventing an unavoidable bug, etc. The best RPG worlds have always been the ones in which the player is able to drastically alter the state of affairs, or alternately a set state world with a perfectly repeatable, linear storyline. Skyrim (and, admittedly, early entries in the series) fall into the gap, where they're too loose-ended to make a proper linear story, and the sense of urgency surrounding the main quest feels absurd, but too restrictive to be a truly freeform world.

 If they really want to give players freedom, they need to ditch the BS about Radiant AI, drop the handholding measures, and get rid of the repetitive quests and writing. If I want to murder every Jarl, Ulfric, and all of the Imperial officers, and watch Skyrim descend into chaos, I should be able to do that. If I want to hone my diplomatic skills working out deals between individuals, between villages and bandit groups, etc., and then negotiate a peace between the Imperials and Stormcloaks, turning them both against the Thalmor, I should be able to do that. If I want to become a wise old hermit living deep in the wilderness, with new adventurers seeking advice from me, I should be able to do that. If Bethesda doesn't want to follow up claims of opened, emergent worlds and NPCs that adapt to change, they need to stop harping on about how great Radiant AI supposedly is and work on core mechanics and writing (ye gog, the writing) to make what we do have a better game.
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Sordid

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3917 on: December 21, 2011, 10:52:29 pm »

If this "Radiant AI" system keeps improving and becomes more Radiant Intelligence and less Artificial, the non-linearity will appear out of the dynamic interactions between the NPCs, the player and the world, and questlines will be largely unscripted save for the dramatic points, setting goals for the NPCs and letting them do their thing and make their own decisions on how to oppose the player or cope with the loss of another NPC. They're "pioneering" with a "new" technology, and everyone knows that if you pioneer, you'll often die of dysentery. (Quotation marks because there is most likely some other game out there that has already done this and did it better)

Radiant AI was a gimmick, and it hasn't been improved since its inception in Oblivion.  It would probably be better described as a list of character schedules than a form of AI.  Unfortunately for Bethesda's "Radiant [fetch] Quest" system, the point where procedural generation can mimic the work of a competent human writer is also likely the point where computer programs start passing the Turing test, and I don't see Bethesda as producing that level of innovation.

As far as I can tell, the touted Radiant Quest system is just a re-creation of the random quest generator that Daggerfall had. You basically have a bunch of quest templates, the generator fills in the quest giver, the location, and the objective, and sends you on your way. Fifteen years ago this was indeed groundbreaking, now not so much. If they hadn't gotten rid of it in the first place and instead continued developing and expanding upon it, we might've had something truly astonishing today. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they brought it back, but I feel a slight taste of puke in my mouth every time I hear someone from Bethsoft talking about how it's a revolutionary new feature. Stopping screwing up and going back to what worked should be accompanied by an apology, not bragging.
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ductape

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3918 on: December 21, 2011, 11:14:40 pm »

I think its funny that after the Dark Brotherhood quests (if you have done this, you know what I mean) that I am now swearing loyalty to the Emperor and joining the fight against Ulfric and his racist rabble. So delicious.
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Gamerlord

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3919 on: December 21, 2011, 11:59:10 pm »

I think its funny that after the Dark Brotherhood quests (if you have done this, you know what I mean) that I am now swearing loyalty to the Emperor and joining the fight against Ulfric and his racist rabble. So delicious.

Heh heh, yeah. Its even funnier if you do it during the Imperial Legion quests though.

Domenique

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3920 on: December 22, 2011, 12:11:09 am »

I think its funny that after the Dark Brotherhood quests (if you have done this, you know what I mean) that I am now swearing loyalty to the Emperor and joining the fight against Ulfric and his racist rabble. So delicious.

Heh heh, yeah. Its even funnier if you do it during the Imperial Legion quests though.

It felt weird doing companion and stormcloak lines after completing TG, but this is off the chart.
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Trapezohedron

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3921 on: December 22, 2011, 12:18:35 am »

Re: Dungeons

I find it ridiculous that some dungeon exits lead straight back to the entrance, in a boring hallway situated just on a small cliff above the dungeon entrance. It's made more ridiculous when a dungeon's backstory involves an expedition team looking for a Macguffin in an ancient ruin, but they never bothered to pry open doors barred from the other side, that one door that lead them straight into the Macguffin room.

Seriously, Bethsoft, give me a dungeon that has reasonable architecture, instead of a backdoor that practically nullifies the meaning of a whole dungeon's architecture. I mean, imagine, in Saarthal, that ruin was supposed to be unexplored, but the gigantic spherical macguffin's room was located near the entrance, and the expedition team somehow neglected to bypass that simple door. That door wasn't even one of those claw-operated doors, it was just a simple nordic barrow door.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3922 on: December 22, 2011, 01:12:25 am »

So I do some thieve's guild quests, then go to fight the first dragon since I'm in whiterun for some mission.

Do you know what kind of dragon it ends up being? A blood dragon.

You know what level I am? 9.

You know what level blood dragons are supposed to start appearing? 16.

I died.
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ductape

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3923 on: December 22, 2011, 01:46:51 am »

EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. I. GO. TO. DAWNSTAR. I. SAY. HI. TO. ELDER. DRAGON.

Sometimes I kill it. Sometimes I go around and pretend it isnt there. Sometimes Shadowmere goes after it and does a good job of distracting it. So far I have killed this dragon, or its clones, maybe 8 times.
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Tarran

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3924 on: December 22, 2011, 02:08:10 am »

Look on the bright side: You're getting a lot of bones and scales for making armor.

In addition, if you have a dragon soul to perks mod, you'll have more perks.
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Quote from: Phantom
Unknown to most but the insane and the mystics, Tarran is actually Earth itself, as Earth is sentient like that planet in Avatar. Originally Earth used names such as Terra on the internet, but to protect it's identity it changed letters, now becoming the Tarran you know today.
Quote from: Ze Spy
Tarran has the "Tarran Bug", a bug which causes the affected character to repeatedly hit teammates while dual-wielding instead of whatever the hell he is shooting at.

penguinofhonor

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3925 on: December 22, 2011, 04:04:31 am »

I just realized that if you level smithing fast enough on a light armor character, you can skip the light armor perk since the ultimate set of equipment is going to be dragon scale plus daedric weapons. Sure, it sucks until then, but I can't afford to waste perks.
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irbis

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3926 on: December 22, 2011, 05:47:29 am »

So I do some thieve's guild quests, then go to fight the first dragon since I'm in whiterun for some mission.

Do you know what kind of dragon it ends up being? A blood dragon.

You know what level I am? 9.

You know what level blood dragons are supposed to start appearing? 16.

I died.
actualy i am kind a jelous. i dont remember when a dragon killed me. actualy i think it never happend. bandits, giants, mamoths, falmers on the other hand did that like bazzilion times.

also this (for the lols):
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/586270
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Tarran

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3927 on: December 22, 2011, 06:30:53 am »

actualy i am kind a jelous. i dont remember when a dragon killed me. actualy i think it never happend. bandits, giants, mamoths, falmers on the other hand did that like bazzilion times.
Just wait for an Elder dragon to shoot flame at you ONCE and kill you if you do not drink potions very quickly. Heavy armor don't do shit against lots of fire.
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Quote from: Phantom
Unknown to most but the insane and the mystics, Tarran is actually Earth itself, as Earth is sentient like that planet in Avatar. Originally Earth used names such as Terra on the internet, but to protect it's identity it changed letters, now becoming the Tarran you know today.
Quote from: Ze Spy
Tarran has the "Tarran Bug", a bug which causes the affected character to repeatedly hit teammates while dual-wielding instead of whatever the hell he is shooting at.

irbis

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3928 on: December 22, 2011, 10:49:07 am »

actualy i am kind a jelous. i dont remember when a dragon killed me. actualy i think it never happend. bandits, giants, mamoths, falmers on the other hand did that like bazzilion times.
Just wait for an Elder dragon to shoot flame at you ONCE and kill you if you do not drink potions very quickly. Heavy armor don't do shit against lots of fire.
ward ftw absorbed dualed fireball and stood still :D i am playing mage.
but seriously - i am looking forward to it.
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Werdna

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3929 on: December 22, 2011, 11:30:51 am »

Just wait for an Elder dragon to shoot flame at you ONCE and kill you if you do not drink potions very quickly. Heavy armor don't do shit against lots of fire.

You can trivialize even them pretty easily...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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