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[pilgrimboy]

What I don't like is that daedric and glass stuff are makeable (or easy to come by) instead of being rare as f**k. Also I sometimes with there was some uber boss to kill at every end of the dungeon, because, come on, death lords? Two power attacks or one sneak attack.

They really aren't makeable unless you put leveling points into smithing. That's frustrating to me. I'm not going to level in smithing at the expense of sneaking or archery.

I wish the market system was a little more intelligent. Like I could give my rare ores to a smithing friend of mine and he would make me what I wanted out of them. Instead, it is just all bland. I could sell my ores (because I haven't invested the leveling points into smithing despite having a seventy level in it) to a merchant but they wouldn't make items out of those ores. Why do I have to be the expert in smithing in order to get what I want? I would be willing to pay.

I also would like a boss at the end of the dungeons. Some of them are really disappointing.

[Domenique]

I don't know what are you talking about. Sure, it has it's problems, but I am 42nd level and I am able to kill everything with ease, every bloody dragon. And dragons change. The named ones, for instance, have a set power, and the first one is IIRC weaker than the generic dragon, after whom you'll get blood dragons (again stronger), then elder and at last ancient dragons. They're not the same dragons, therefore they are not leveled. Stuff doesn't level with you, you just start getting stronger enemies. The bandits stay that way, you get a few more draugr scourges and deathlords (who at 42nd level are weak ayeways) etc. It's fine most of the time.

So if the characters you can't encounter at a lower level are the same as those characters except with different names, then it is not leveling? That is just leveling with a disguise. It wouldn't be leveling if those characters were around and could kick your butt at the lower levels. Getting stronger enemies as you level rather than having them level with you is the exact same thing as leveling. Just because they changed the name and the sprite doesn't mean that it's not a leveled bandit, dragon, dragur, etc.

And it's not fine any of the time. It ruined the immersion for me.

What I meant is that you don't get "bandits in glass" and "marauders in daedric". Plunderers are the strongest bandits besides chiefs, I take them out in one hit. What I was trying to say that as you level up, some of new enemies start showing up, but some types just stop at a certain level, for example I will one hit every bandit, though that's not true for draugrs. So the kind of enemies that make sense to get stronger do get stronger.

You have to remember that there's not much alternative to being leveled. I would without any doubt appreciate if there was no leveling at all, but then again I'm finishing high school this year and have a s**tload of time on my hands. Some people don't, they just want to sit in, finish a game in few weeks and be done with it. That's the majority, and we will have to accept it, instead of nagging about it. It's what the devs adapted and the way it will stay. With time it may improve, so let's just hope for that and enjoy the game for it's good parts, not hate for every little bad part.

[Reiina]

What I meant is that you don't get "bandits in glass" and "marauders in daedric". Plunderers are the strongest bandits besides chiefs, I take them out in one hit. What I was trying to say that as you level up, some of new enemies start showing up, but some types just stop at a certain level, for example I will one hit every bandit, though that's not true for draugrs. So the kind of enemies that make sense to get stronger do get stronger.

You have to remember that there's not much alternative to being leveled. I would without any doubt appreciate if there was no leveling at all, but then again I'm finishing high school this year and have a s**tload of time on my hands. Some people don't, they just want to sit in, finish a game in few weeks and be done with it. That's the majority, and we will have to accept it, instead of nagging about it. It's what the devs adapted and the way it will stay. With time it may improve, so let's just hope for that and enjoy the game for it's good parts, not hate for every little bad part.

The problem is even if bandits don't wear glass armor you'll start to find some glass armor/weapons in their lairs :p.
As for why the leveling system is like that, more than the "common" player wanting this, I think it's simply because it's far easier to do.
If you have to do a bandit dungeon, you just create a levelled list which you can reuse for all the bandit dungeons instead of handcrafting every single dungeon encounter(and item).
Now, one could argue that you could just say "this dungeon is lvl 40+" and the levelled list would take enemies for a lvl 40 minimum. I read it was supposed to be like this in Skyrim but I have not seen any evidence of this playing. But seeing as I play a rogue and sneaking is so massively overpowered I dunno if I would have noticed. Loot wise I haven't noticed anything like that either, I found iron, then steel, then dwarven, then glass weapons as I leveled up...

I haven't really found any item worth mentionning in the 100 hours I played(apart from one daedric item I guess), my character uses weapons he has forged through the heroic process of buying bars and smelting them...

At least they could have associated quests with the high level crafting, like recovering the secrets of dwarven metal working(can't imagine the daedric one though).

Anyway it was fun, and I rarely play games for 100 hours, it was money well spent even if I'm bored of it now .

[The Merchant Of Menace]

Todd Howard had a better idea for level scaling once, but then he took an arrow to the knee.

[thvaz]

Even DF gets boring after a while. Skyrim is a great game, and nowadays is the best we have. We should thanks Bethesda for making the kind of games no one is making anymore.

[scriver]

What I meant is that you don't get "bandits in glass" and "marauders in daedric".

Which only means the levelling is handled better than in Oblivions, which doesn't mean much seeming as Oblivion had the worst level-scaling I've ever encountered in any game.

You have to remember that there's not much alternative to being leveled.

Scaling by region rather than scaling to your level is an excellent alternative, or even better, a mix of the two.

With time it may improve, so let's just hope for that and enjoy the game for it's good parts, not hate for every little bad part.

Because anybody expressing dislike at any part of the game obviously means they hate it, and not just that they rather it was some other way? Really, I'm still enjoying Skyrim a lot at over 100 hours, but if there's something I really dislike it's people who go "you shouldn't nag/hate, just think of the good parts, they'll make it better next time" every times anyone comes with a valid complaint. Because if people don't speak their mind, especially with all the mindless praise Beth automatically receives as soon as they fart loud enough, how is it ever going to change more to these people's likings?

Even DF gets boring after a while. Skyrim is a great game, and nowadays is the best we have. We should thanks Bethesda for making the kind of games no one is making anymore.

...No. Beth maybe relatively alone with their genre, but they certainly aren't continuing some "lost tradition of gaming" - they were always relatively alone making this kind of pseudo-RPG action games. And they're not even especially good at making them any more, seeming as the writers appears to be thinking they're writing for a completely rail-roaded, freedom-less game rather than an open-world experience.

[The Merchant Of Menace]

What I meant is that you don't get "bandits in glass" and "marauders in daedric".

Which only means the levelling is handled better than in Oblivions, which doesn't mean much seeming as Oblivion had the worst level-scaling I've ever encountered in any game.

So you admit there's been a gradual improvement.

You have to remember that there's not much alternative to being leveled.

Scaling by region rather than scaling to your level is an excellent alternative, or even better, a mix of the two.

"Oh, you wanted to go to Windhelm? NYUP! YOU GRIND LEVELS IN STARTER AREA!"

With time it may improve, so let's just hope for that and enjoy the game for it's good parts, not hate for every little bad part.

Because anybody expressing dislike at any part of the game obviously means they hate it, and not just that they rather it was some other way? Really, I'm still enjoying Skyrim a lot at over 100 hours, but if there's something I really dislike it's people who go "you shouldn't nag/hate, just think of the good parts, they'll make it better next time" every times anyone comes with a valid complaint. Because if people don't speak their mind, especially with all the mindless praise Beth automatically receives as soon as they fart loud enough, how is it ever going to change more to these people's likings?

Fair cop.

Even DF gets boring after a while. Skyrim is a great game, and nowadays is the best we have. We should thanks Bethesda for making the kind of games no one is making anymore.

...No. Beth maybe relatively alone with their genre, but they certainly aren't continuing some "lost tradition of gaming" - they were always relatively alone making this kind of pseudo-RPG action games. And they're not even especially good at making them any more, seeming as the writers appears to be thinking they're writing for a completely rail-roaded, freedom-less game rather than an open-world experience.

Also fair cop.

[Domenique]

Scaling by region rather than scaling to your level is an excellent alternative, or even better, a mix of the two.

Which is exactly what has been done. Go to the north in level one, a sabercat will hug you. If you mean the real deal, when that will require lots of hours invested in exploring, the same hours average gamer nowadays doesn't have. That's why they make games streamlined nowadays, to ensure that there's less time between action/plot point/quest/whatever.

Because anybody expressing dislike at any part of the game obviously means they hate it, and not just that they rather it was some other way? Really, I'm still enjoying Skyrim a lot at over 100 hours, but if there's something I really dislike it's people who go "you shouldn't nag/hate, just think of the good parts, they'll make it better next time" every times anyone comes with a valid complaint. Because if people don't speak their mind, especially with all the mindless praise Beth automatically receives as soon as they fart loud enough, how is it ever going to change more to these people's likings?

No, it's just that expressing a complaint for once is enough, not always nagging and stating the same thing from page to page. I've read the complaints about leveling EVERYWHERE. Some are valid, some are stupid. There are some people that only nag for "omg shitty levelling LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL" and that's all that they write, stating that it's shitty because they got it the  wrong way. I hate posts that are valid complaints in entirety. Complaints are worthless because they are what they are - complaints, criticism, that will do no good, especially on these boards. If you want to fill up complaint stating how "outrageously stupid" this is then do it in Beth forums (where all that you will do is spark negative emotions in the creators, because humans are idiots ruled by emotions, not by logic) , go to the Argument clinic or whatever, this board is to discuss games not to nag about them.

[scriver]

What I meant is that you don't get "bandits in glass" and "marauders in daedric".

Which only means the levelling is handled better than in Oblivions, which doesn't mean much seeming as Oblivion had the worst level-scaling I've ever encountered in any game.

So you admit there's been a gradual improvement.

...Yeah, but like I said, that doesn't mean anything by itself. Especially when it's still worse than Morrowinds, which by no means was a Paragon of Levelling itself.

You have to remember that there's not much alternative to being leveled.

Scaling by region rather than scaling to your level is an excellent alternative, or even better, a mix of the two.

"Oh, you wanted to go to Windhelm? NYUP! YOU GRIND LEVELS IN STARTER AREA!"
[/quote]

More like "Oh, you wanted to beat Alduin, Destroyer of Worlds, the End of Time, Akatosh's Bad Hair Day, at level five? NYUP! YOU GRIND LEVELS IN LEVEL-APPROPRIATE AREA!"

Trying to blow my argument out of proportions is silly. There is no reason Windhelm shouldn't be a low-level area. It basically is a starter area anyway.

Scaling by region rather than scaling to your level is an excellent alternative, or even better, a mix of the two.

Which is exactly what has been done. Go to the north in level one, a sabercat will hug you. If you mean the real deal, when that will require lots of hours invested in exploring, the same hours average gamer nowadays doesn't have. That's why they make games streamlined nowadays, to ensure that there's less time between action/plot point/quest/whatever.

No. I had little trouble beating sabercats when I encountered the one by the river outside Whiterun, having only gone through the first Barrow and Riverwood at that point. Whatever little difference in difficulty there is between regions in Skyrim, it is too small for me too feel any of it. The only time I feel it is difficult is when I level up too many non-combat skills and the level-scaled enemies get too far ahead of me. And I am not even especially good at this kind of real-time action.

No, it's just that expressing a complaint for once is enough, not always nagging and stating the same thing from page to page. I've read the complaints about leveling EVERYWHERE. Some are valid, some are stupid. There are some people that only nag for "omg shitty levelling LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL" and that's all that they write, stating that it's shitty because they got it the  wrong way. I hate posts that are valid complaints in entirety. Complaints are worthless because they are what they are - complaints, criticism, that will do no good, especially on these boards. If you want to fill up complaint stating how "outrageously stupid" this is then do it in Beth forums (where all that you will do is spark negative emotions in the creators, because humans are idiots ruled by emotions, not by logic) , go to the Argument clinic or whatever, this board is to discuss games not to nag about them.

Does "discussing games" only involve praising them to you? A lot of people have things to say, and they will doubtlessly say the same things, be it praise or complaints, and they will repeat themselves if they still feel the need to express themselves later. That is what discussion is. I, and probably most other people, do not complain on these bay12 forums to get the attention of Beth's designers, we do it to get things of our chests.

Really, if you want to hear nothing but good things about the game, you should go to a Skyrim or Beth fan forum, not a board that is, by your own words, for discussing games.

[Domenique]

No. I had little trouble beating sabercats when I encountered the one by the river outside Whiterun, having only gone through the first Barrow and Riverwood at that point. Whatever little difference in difficulty there is between regions in Skyrim, it is too small for me too feel any of it. The only time I feel it is difficult is when I level up too many non-combat skills and the level-scaled enemies get too far ahead of me. And I am not even especially good at this kind of real-time action.

Point being, there's too many "I" in your text, and frankly that's not the target audience of the game.

Does "discussing games" only involve praising them to you? A lot of people have things to say, and they will doubtlessly say the same things, be it praise or complaints, and they will repeat themselves if they still feel the need to express themselves later. That is what discussion is. I, and probably most other people, do not complain on these bay12 forums to get the attention of Beth's designers, we do it to get things of our chests.

Really, if you want to hear nothing but good things about the game, you should go to a Skyrim or Beth fan forum, not a board that is, by your own words, for discussing games.

I didn't say only praise them (I have many complaints about skyrim), I said don't complain. About the same thing. Repeatedly. I hear so many people complaining about politics all the time, about the same things, and when I come here, MORE COMPLAINING. It would be some constructive debating/discussing if it was actually constructive and non-repeatable, not something somebody five-pages before already told. I get it, leveling system is shitty, broken etc. Alright. Why repeat that? That's not even discussing, that's outright complaining. I come to discuss, that is talk about quests, classes, monsters and shit, and indeed I may express my complain to find out other genuine opinions, but why every five pages on same things?

I'm not a beth fan, skyrim fan whatever, I just hate nagging.

[Kilroy the Grand]

Skyrim is a great game, and nowadays is the best we have. We should thanks Bethesda for making the kind of games no one is making anymore.

Yes, we should thank bethesda for making a product inferior to one they made a decade ago with a fraction of the budget. The elder scrolls peaked at morrowind, what we're seeing is the beginning of the end for TES, in a few more years it will just be a single player WOW clone, suitable for only the most attention deficient.

[Toady Two]

I for one, welcome our new console gaming overlords.

I mean this, seriously. If you can't get what you like you should like what you get, also... mods.

[Kilroy the Grand]

I for one, welcome our new console gaming overlords.

I mean this, seriously. If you can't get what you like you should like what you get, also... mods.

I shouldn't HAVE to rely on mods for a satisfying experience, I didn't pay the $60 to a modder. I gave it to the people who should have made an interesting, stable game in the first place.

[scriver]

Point being, there's too many "I" in your text, and frankly that's not the target audience of the game.

That is not much of an argument, seeming as it can defend absolutely everything. Think Twilight is bad? Doubtless, it is not because Meyer is a hack writer, you're just not the target audience. Think Eragon sucks? Obviously Paolini isn't incapable of characterisation or making up his own stories, you're just not the target audience.

It's especially faulty, seeming as I am part of the target audience. I love free-roam, non-linear games. I like action RPGs. I enjoy going spelunking in dungeons and killing monsters, picking up fat lutes as I go and stuffing them all over my virtual housing until the whole place explodes in a hail of pointy things, skulls and flawless gems every time I enter it. This is the kind of games Beth is making. Like I've said before, I'm at over 100 hours, and I'm still probably going to be playing it for a month or two more, even further when the good mods starts getting released. But I just don't think they're that great at what their doing. Skyrim could be so much, much more.

I didn't say only praise them (I have many complaints about skyrim), I said don't complain. About the same thing. Repeatedly. I hear so many people complaining about politics all the time, about the same things, and when I come here, MORE COMPLAINING. It would be some constructive debating/discussing if it was actually constructive and non-repeatable, not something somebody five-pages before already told. I get it, leveling system is shitty, broken etc. Alright. Why repeat that? That's not even discussing, that's outright complaining. I come to discuss, that is talk about quests, classes, monsters and shit, and indeed I may express my complain to find out other genuine opinions, but why every five pages on same things?

I'm not a beth fan, skyrim fan whatever, I just hate nagging.

Bolded - and in hindsight, it was dumb of me to say you did. However, the point I was making is that what you call "complaining" is part of what makes discussion discussion. For example, just yesterday or the night before that, I talked about the awesome fight I just had (involving me, Lydia, a guard, a dragon, a giant, an ice-troll and some bandits) and then I went on to "complain" about a feature I wish would have existed in the game (dynamic, temporary friendships between otherwise hostile NPCS and intelligent creatures that have fought another creature, a dragon in this example, together). I felt something was missing, had an idea, and wanted to share it (as well as my awesome fight-experience) with bay12. I've "complained" about the extremely, to the point of crippling the player's experience, linear quests in a supposedly non-linear game, because I need to vent the annoyance I feel every time Beth decided I can't do something my character should logically be able to do in that situation.

Spoiler: Look, I still get annoyed just by thinking of it (click to show/hide)

Find proof in a dungeon that the guy wanting to hire me for a job was only going to use me as a scapegoat? Surely I can go and kick his ass for it, or at least call him on it? What, not even a meaningless dialogue option for keeping up the illusion of choice? Because I have to do the quest in the exact order Beth wanted me to, and wasn't supposed to find that proof until after the quest was done? Great non-linearity there, Bethie-boy!

People will complain about the same things over and over, just like people will praise the same things over and over. If everyone agreed to only say the same thing once, there would be what, ten pages to this thread? And the same people will keep saying the same thing if they feel it needs to be said. That's how things are, both here and IRL. It's okay for you to dislike that, I won't tell you not to, or call you a fanboy for it. But complaining about how people are only complaining doesn't make much sense (especially when "people are always just complaining and never say anything constructive, they should just shut up instead" is one of the complaints I encounter the most on the Internet), if I'm going to be honest. To me, that just proves you do it as well, just like the rest of us.

I am a Beth fanboy, and I say - Keep on nagging

[Domenique]

That is not much of an argument, seeming as it can defend absolutely everything. Think Twilight is bad? Doubtless, it is not because Meyer is a hack writer, you're just not the target audience. Think Eragon sucks? Obviously Paolini isn't incapable of characterisation or making up his own stories, you're just not the target audience.

It's especially faulty, seeming as I am part of the target audience. I love free-roam, non-linear games. I like action RPGs. I enjoy going spelunking in dungeons and killing monsters, picking up fat lutes as I go and stuffing them all over my virtual housing until the whole place explodes in a hail of pointy things, skulls and flawless gems every time I enter it. This is the kind of games Beth is making. Like I've said before, I'm at over 100 hours, and I'm still probably going to be playing it for a month or two more, even further when the good mods starts getting released. But I just don't think they're that great at what their doing. Skyrim could be so much, much more.

One's meal is other's poison. While Twilight is a pile of dingo's kidneys, it got printed. Why? The publishers saw that it will be popular in teenage girls, not that it's a good book. It's not their problem. Maybe Stephen Meyer just writes the shit to get money. The thing is that target audience defines the product. If you're intelligent, you'll want something targeted for intelligent people, if you're not, you won't even spot the difference and take the nearest teenage-emotion-driven book you'll get on your hands.

And with Skyrim, the thing is -- it's not for free-roam, non-linear, action rpg lovers -- it's for casual gamers. The free-roaming rpg part doesn't how to be too pronounced for them to like it, and if it will be too much of an rpg, they won't like it. Face it, Skyrim is less rpg even than Oblivion. But it still fun for us, those who like rpgs, yet a bit dissapointing. It's because we partly fit the target audience, but we aren't exactly the target audience.

People will complain about the same things over and over, just like people will praise the same things over and over. If everyone agreed to only say the same thing once, there would be what, ten pages to this thread? And the same people will keep saying the same thing if they feel it needs to be said. That's how things are, both here and IRL. It's okay for you to dislike that, I won't tell you not to, or call you a fanboy for it. But complaining about how people are only complaining doesn't make much sense (especially when "people are always just complaining and never say anything constructive, they should just shut up instead" is one of the complaints I encounter the most on the Internet), if I'm going to be honest. To me, that just proves you do it as well, just like the rest of us.

There is time when complaints and appraisal must stop and general discussion of bosses, quests, mechanics must come in. It's been a month after Skyrim has been released and everybody has their opinions and read those of others. The nag is already a hundred pages deep. Unless you would complain about something new, there's nothing more you can add, ergo just talk about mechanics etc. in likeliness of Europa Universalis III page. Is EUIII perfect? Not by any chance. Any nagging? A few posts, yes, and it's over, you've got genuine discussions on what to do etc.