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[WillowLuman]

I mean, yeah, not all so many stats, but Skyrim really is fun. And so are Oblivion and Morrowind. And Daggerfall. Don't remember much of Arena though.

[The Darkling Wolf]

Damn Bethesda, taking out all the skills, I miss Climbing and Daedric and Backstabbing and Critical Strike and Centaurian and Dodging and Dragonish and Elvish and Nymph and Orcish and Spriggan and Streetwise and Giantish. And let's not mention the lycra Khajiit suits.

[WillowLuman]

lycra....? Oh dear...

Climbing was very fun, especially the one time I glitched it with the horse. Funniest CTD ever.

Oh, and 1-shotting a nord in Morrowind, he does that one ridiculous stumbling death animation while saying "Now THIS is fighting!"

[Neonivek]

Damn Bethesda, taking out all the skills, I miss Climbing and Daedric and Backstabbing and Critical Strike and Centaurian and Dodging and Dragonish and Elvish and Nymph and Orcish and Spriggan and Streetwise and Giantish. And let's not mention the lycra Khajiit suits.

But the casuals don't like variety of actions and skills.

[WillowLuman]

I'm really not bitter over Skyrim's gameplay. There is still complexity, which can be greatly enhanced by a couple light, precise mods. What I am bitter about it that they developed it on Xbox and then ported it to PC.

[Neonivek]

I'm really not bitter over Skyrim's gameplay. There is still complexity, which can be greatly enhanced by a couple light, precise mods. What I am bitter about it that they developed it on Xbox and then ported it to PC.

Casuals don't care about proper porting.

[alexandertnt]

But the casuals don't like variety of actions and skills.

Casuals don't care about proper porting.

Traditionally, one constructs strawmen to make attacking an opponent/opponent's arguments easier. Here, your just constructing strawmen.

[Neonivek]

There is no arguement to make. These things will not improve, they will never improve, and I am telling him there is no point to complaining BECAUSE the majority of people who like Skyrim could care less. If it does improve it will be completely because the people who are making the sequel wanted it to be better even though there is no reason to do it for any market reason.

and that sucks.

[alexandertnt]

There is no arguement to make. These things will not improve, they will never improve, and I am telling him there is no point to complaining BECAUSE the majority of people who like Skyrim could care less.

Then why not say that instead of "<vague group of people> <oppose something I like> <fullstop>".

I always thought that TES series had been getting better in regards to gameplay since the start anyway. The plot has been a bit more flakey though.

[Neonivek]

I always thought that TES series had been getting better in regards to gameplay since the start anyway

It is a give and take. The gameplay is becoming more focused and better in what it does. It is also losing its complexity more and more since Oblivion. With any gameplay outside outright combat somewhat suffering for it.

Think of it this way. There is NO difference between light and heavy armor in this game. Heck the Dragon roars I have a feeling were added NOT because they added anything to the game, and don't get me wrong they are VERY cool, but very likely because it allows everyone to have magic and not lose out.

The weak story to me is actually a dirrect product of that simplification. As the gameplay has become more and more simple, the story itself has become more and more simple.

Afterall there is nothing wrong with the story SO LONG as you refuse to think. Its flaws come out when you expand beyond its dirrect narrative. It lacks the details that would make a story like it has work and the complexity that comes with it. It lacks these details because these details only distract people who have their brains turned off while playing it... AKA the audiance they were going for.

Now is a simple story and simple gameplay a bad thing? No, in fact some of the best games ever made were simple but did it well. Yet it pretty much says you shouldn't expect gold from Elder Scrolls.

ANY flaws you see in Skyrim are intentional and calculated. Heck Vampires would be the odd feature if they didn't MUCH LATER "fix" it.

[alexandertnt]

I always thought that TES series had been getting better in regards to gameplay since the start anyway

It is a give and take. The gameplay is becoming more focused and better in what it does. It is also losing its complexity more and more since Oblivion. With any gameplay outside outright combat somewhat suffering for it.

Think of it this way. There is NO difference between light and heavy armor in this game. Heck the Dragon roars I have a feeling were added NOT because they added anything to the game, and don't get me wrong they are VERY cool, but very likely because it allows everyone to have magic and not lose out.

The weak story to me is actually a dirrect product of that simplification. As the gameplay has become more and more simple, the story itself has become more and more simple.

Afterall there is nothing wrong with the story SO LONG as you refuse to think. Its flaws come out when you expand beyond its dirrect narrative. It lacks the details that would make a story like it has work and the complexity that comes with it. It lacks these details because these details only distract people who have their brains turned off while playing it... AKA the audiance they were going for.

Now is a simple story and simple gameplay a bad thing? No, in fact some of the best games ever made were simple but did it well. Yet it pretty much says you shouldn't expect gold from Elder Scrolls.

I do miss the different armor types having an effect (had to tweak that in myself    ) Though to be honost dumping light/heavy armor altogether and just having lower/higher defence values based on what they would seem to be, making discrete categories redundant, seems like a better and more interesting solution to me. Maby pass the defence value, and a ratio of preference/skill between lightest and heaviest armors through a function and modify the defence values based on this, so that people who generally used lighter armor's would gain some extra benefit and vice-versa. Smoother, more natural and more intricate. Plus I did not like the dragon roars at all for no particular reason. Plus the killing animations/whatever seemed tacky and "look how cool our small collection of prebaked animations are, now watch them over and over!", but overall in regards to gameplay I think it was a net gain.

My main issue was with blaming a vague group of people (the "casuals") whose definition seems to be whatever makes them easy to blame for whatever the current problem is - not the problems themselves.

[Neonivek]

Though to be honost dumping light/heavy armor altogether and just having lower/higher defence values based on what they would seem to be, making discrete categories redundant, seems like a better and more interesting solution to me.

Ohh they don't even have that. Light and Heavy armor, in the end, have the exact same defense values rather quickly if not immediately.

My main issue was with blaming a vague group of people (the "casuals") whose definition seems to be whatever makes them easy to blame for whatever the current problem is - not the problems themselves

Casuals are not vague. They are anyone with only a casual knowledge of games who plays videogames which is the vast majority of the market right now. They are not to blame.

Things arn't going to get better simply because Skyrim isn't marketed towards someone who would have preferences like complexity, depth, and worthwhile variety. It is marketed towards a group of people who like familiarity, simplicity, and arbitrary variety. UI fixes are not part of the formula because the UI is already "simple".

It hurts but you cannot fault it for simply knowing its audiance. Which isn't anyone who knows what Eldar Scrolls Arena was. Heck if you remember Morrowind you are already halfway outside the target audiance.

overall in regards to gameplay I think it was a net gain

I think it was sorta a net loss. What could be a deeper game with enriching varied roles you can play... pretty much boils down to you REALLY only doing the same thing in different ways. Where the thought required to be put in the game isn't there (in fact the game's toughest puzzle, is told to you). Yet what sorta makes it even more of a loss is because you know it isn't going to change, this isn't the game making things simple just to add layers with each instalment, nor is it going to really drive anything come with what it already has.

It is what sort of sucks away the enjoyment overtime. You won't even know why until it happens because the game doesn't seem to do anything really wrong.

[alexandertnt]

They are not to blame.

Okay, but your previous statements sounded like you were blaming them.

pretty much boils down to you REALLY only doing the same thing in different ways.

That I agree with, the game did suffer from repitition. I do not know how people can sink 500+ hours into the game.

[Neonivek]

They sink 500 hours into it because the game sort of plays up the "Addiction based gameplay" that is all the rage now adays.

The game just keeps egging you on to play it more and more and you keep doing so not because you are really having all that much fun but because "why not?".

[Dutchling]

I only really like the dungeon crawl part of the game. The story didn't interest me at all. I didn't like the Imperials nor the Nords, and I explicitly avoided all quests regarding dragons, as I knew the game would spam me with dragons if I didn't. The few quests that were fun at first, like the cannibal ring one, were pretty stupid afterwards. I joined a cannibal club only to have no possible interaction with them afterwards? Lame.