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Author Topic: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim  (Read 1622916 times)

Leatra

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #4380 on: January 07, 2012, 01:14:36 pm »

This is why I'm waiting for mods. Vanilla Morrowind, vanilla Oblivion, vanilla Skyrim... These are just too easy even if you don't use the exploits. With modded Morrowind I never had more septims than 10k until level 14 or something. Bethesda doesn't make good games. They just make awesome-games-if-they-are-modded.

And Daggerfall wasn't that bad when it came out. Games weren't like this at that time. Dungeoneering really sucked but we had more variety. We have less and less variety with each Bethesda game now. It's less RPG and more action each game.
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Muz

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #4381 on: January 07, 2012, 01:33:28 pm »

Skyrim was actually a rare, true RPG. You actually do save the world, and when you do, people actually recognize you. Not only that, but they went a bit further and gave recognition for other little deeds too.

Was there another version of Skyrim that I'm missing? Because after completing the main quest and civil war quests with hardly any mention and plenty of dialogue pretending my victories never happened, I'm pretty sure we played different Skyrims.

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Quote
From start to finish, it provides an ideal RPG experience... do what you like, be a hero, destroy the world or save it, get legendary artifacts, etc. There's the good old cliches like innkeepers giving quests, guilds for all the major playstyles of the game, etc. So, heck, I give it a 5/5, definitely RPG of the year, and a good benchmark for the whole decade (even with the game killing bugs).

Taken out of context, that could easily be said about Oblivion. The more I've played of Skyrim, the fewer differences I honestly see between it and Oblivion.

Skyrim has a setting that wasn't generic the instant your feet hit the ground. That's its strongest and most enduring feature. Beyond that? It's chalk full of the exact same tropes, experiences and methods that Bethesda has been polishing since Oblivion. It's better textured, more varied and the map has a more artisanal quality to it. But it's exactly the same kind of content you got in Oblivion.

Skyrim is going to get game of the year for Mountains and Dragons. If people think it deserves GotY for more than that, I think their brown-tinted glasses could use a good polishing. Because the guts of Skyrim are the exact same as Oblivion, FO3 and FO:NV.

Heh, I was going to write a blog entry on why I thought Skyrim did everything right. First off, I don't think the core gameplay really matters, it's all about implementation. There's a reason why Final Fantasy is miles ahead of generic RPGMaker games. Why Halo is better than the thousands of shooters out there. Why Knytt Stories brings in a wonderful feeling, when at its base, it's a generic platformer. Mount and Blade has superb gameplay, but lacks any other elements to it; same with many Total War games both of which just generate storylines for your battles.

Too many people look at the separate components of games - I hate any review that splits the final score into things like "Sound and Music" and "Bugs". A good game is more than the sum of its parts. An typical $50 flop is a game which basically copied off the exact same gameplay as another game and put better graphics on top of it.

Personally, I think the most enjoyable bits of RPGs are:
1. Dungeons.
2. Dragons.
3. Items.

Computer RPGs have been doing those forever, since games like Wizardry and Buck Rogers and Diablo. It's that aspect that bring computer RPGs ahead of pen and paper - you can just hack and slash through stuff and then get rich and fat on the plunder, and then hack and slash through bigger stuff.


Dungeons mean a guided route. You can have a huge world, and Bethesda games certainly do. But Dungeons are designed to give them a path to follow. It makes sure that the player doesn't miss too much of the treasure and end up too weak, but the secret doors and stuff reward the player for taking specialized skills. It gives them a clear path to the big boss battle and the boss's treasure hoard. It lets the players enjoy the scenery of the dungeon, sniff the culture of the game world. It tells the player what to do, without seeming bossy. It allows the players to exercise all their PvE skills, whether it's combat, sneaking, lockpicking, finding/disarming traps, etc.

Bethesda games have reaaaallly sucked in this. Dungeons are superb tools for guiding players; Bethesda games usually just leave you with this huge world and giving you no idea what to do. Bethesda dungeons have often felt quite random, out-of-place from the world (literally with Oblivion). They might as well have been randomly generated. My main beef with FO3 was that its world felt like it was 90% raiders and 10% townspeople, which was rather jarring, and the Dungeons were just really plain.

Skyrim's dungeons on the other hand had a nice handcrafted feel to them. They let you go in, give you a lovely experience, and are even nice enough to allow you a quick exit once you've beaten the boss. There's a sort of culture in every dungeon. It's difficult to say with words, but it feels like a tour instead of a crawl, and even when it's a crawl, it's usually because you expect something really cool at the end of it.


Dragons are basically these massive monsters, way stronger than you, with a long history in being invincible, powerful, and really rich. Any game can have their own version of Dragons, like some kind of ancient 1000 year old Lich, or an invincible Emperor. The game just builds them up as some kind of undefeatable threat, actually convinces you that they're undefeatable, and somehow, through some birthright or hard work (like recovering an artifact or investigative work), you actually beat them and get richly rewarded.

Skyrim takes this aspect quite literally and to the point. The other Bethesda games were not quite as impressive at it. The RPG classics have always had this supervillian(s). Baldur's Gate 2 had you fighting against demigods. Fallout 2 had progressively bigger threats. FO3 ended with a whimper (and a really unimpressive ending), and I got bored of Oblivion/Morrowind long before I found out who the boss was.


Items are basically the cool factor. The unique artifacts in games, unique craftables, being able to buy mansions and show off your wealth. They're a little similar to the Dragons aspect in that they're goals you want to chase after. But you get to keep them as trophies and show them off to other friends playing the game, or enjoy showing it off.

Skyrim excels here as well. There's tons of "get this legendary artifact locked away for several generations" quests. FO3 had very little cool stuff, and none of it had any real cultural value. The best I found was this cool talking armor, but even that was more of a novelty than an artifact. Oblivion did a grave crime here in giving you really crappy and ugly items, and I stopped at the point where I found out that the ugly glass weapons were state of the art.


Yes, Skyrim has its flaws, and plenty of them. If I rated it on bugs, it'd be 2/10, especially with a few game breaking ones. I dislike the encumbrance system, and the "info overload" still applies to potions and ingredients and scrolls later on, when you end up just lugging around 500 units of stuff because you're too lazy to dump it. Also kinda sucks that there are few jewelry buyers, when jewelry seems to be a currency.

The difficulty system really sucks; I'm pretty sure Bethesda just decides to let the players choose their own difficulty, and I absolutely hate how it ramps up accordingly to levels (meaning that you get punished in combat for having skills you just dabble with). The 'set your own difficulty' system ruins the sense of accomplishment.

But despite all the gameplay flaws, it's an excellent game. It's a role playing game, in meaning. The game pulls you into another world and does its best to convince you that the world is real, just like what Fallout 2 does. It's hard to describe by breaking it down into parts, I guess the best word is... immersive. And immersion is something that too many RPGs fail at.
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Jacob/Lee

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #4382 on: January 07, 2012, 03:38:31 pm »

Karnewarrior

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #4383 on: January 07, 2012, 03:46:20 pm »

You know my biggest issue with Skyrim?

I have all this ph4t l00t and no-one with enough money to buy it from me. Even after emptying an entire town of it's treasury I still have 100+ punds of things I don't need.


Also I have like 16 things of dragon bone is that too much?
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Leatra

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #4384 on: January 07, 2012, 03:49:37 pm »



I don't see Skyrim as a true RPG. You clearly have a different definition of RPG than me. There are RPGs without dungeons and bosses(dragons, in that case) too.

Dungeons don't really give a big reward to the player. I never found a weapon better than the one I got from a quest. There isn't much point to clear dungeons. I just do them for quests since most quests end up with sending you to a dungeon.

You don't need Dragon souls after you get the shout you want. I always use Fire Breath now and I have so Dragon souls to spend if I find a shout I want to use. They aren't stronger than you either. I have more trouble with killing a frost troll.

The point of the TES games isn't finding and killing the boss/supervillain/1000 year old lich. We got factions and side quests too you know.

And these bugs that you don't seem much to care about, explain this to PS3 players. I don't call that a bug though. I call that deceiving.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 03:54:31 pm by Leatra »
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Duke 2.0

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #4385 on: January 07, 2012, 03:54:30 pm »

I don't see Skyrim as a true RPG. You clearly have a different definition of RPG than me.
Aha

AHAH

Oh my god this is gonna spiral out of control. All sorts of semantics and definitions and fallacies all over the place. I'm just gonna go with the position of 'insulting the devs is bad form and we kinda have Issues and Problems with expectations on these forums, so I get riled up when things get perfect reviews but are total soul-crushing disappointments because limbs don't dismember or something'.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 03:56:48 pm by Duke 2.0 »
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Grakelin

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #4386 on: January 07, 2012, 04:14:07 pm »

Why are you having trouble fighting frost trolls when you have Fire Breath?

My Sword-and-Boarder and even my Two-Hander had issues taking on trolls (which culminated in the Sword-and-Boarder training frost trolls from Labyrinth to Morthal and watching in horror as they killed merchants and farmers along the way), but my Swordmage, who got owned by EVERYTHING could drop Frost Trolls as if it was nothing because of her fire spells.

I call shenanigans!
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Jervous

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #4387 on: January 07, 2012, 04:17:51 pm »

He lied about the whole damn thing... HE'S A PHONEY! A BIG FAT PHONEY!
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Glowcat

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #4388 on: January 07, 2012, 04:23:11 pm »

GUI Modding for Skyrim is only getting better.

SkyUI for example. I find the game itself lacking long-term appeal but the modding potential so far makes me giddy.
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Duke 2.0

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #4389 on: January 07, 2012, 04:30:20 pm »

 I don't like Skyrim UI. Still waiting around for one that sorta appeals to me. I guess I would prefer something a bit more like vanilla but addressing the main issues with wasted space and always showing the character.
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nenjin

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #4390 on: January 07, 2012, 04:35:31 pm »

Quote
But despite all the gameplay flaws, it's an excellent game. It's a role playing game, in meaning. The game pulls you into another world and does its best to convince you that the world is real, just like what Fallout 2 does. It's hard to describe by breaking it down into parts, I guess the best word is... immersive. And immersion is something that too many RPGs fail at.

See, I think all the Bethesda games have done a passable job at being immersive and letting you play a role. That's not, nor has it ever been my contention.

It's the "little parts" that after 5 games I'm getting sick of them not addressing. They know how to do epic. Now show me they know how to make a game with enduring game play that doesn't peter out at the 35 hour mark. I really like Skyrim's dungeons. But "culturally relevant?" Why? Because there's "draugr" instead of "zombie?" Because there are tombs filled with placed objects that have no earthly business in an ancient Nord tomb?

All that stuff strikes me as window dressing. Because after 10th Nord Tomb, I ripped the veil of disbelief off my eyes and started actually seeing what I was being presented. Someone obviously put more time into dungeons so they were as interesting to navigate as they were to loot. And that, I really appreciate.

But for some reason, if Bethesda can't make it in one of their editors, they don't freaking bother anymore. It's why their ideas about encumberance, UIs, and game balance overall NEVER CHANGES. Because they aren't willing to take a critical look and do the kinds of revisions to it that their fans have been asking for title, after title, after title.

It's like asking your car manufacturer for better gas mileage, and instead they put ground effects on your car. And man oh man, does your car look sweet with ground effects. But it still only gets 5 miles to the gallon. And when you're out in the middle of the wilderness, with no gas and no way to get some, you spend about 5 minutes looking at your sweet ass ground effects before you walk to the nearest gas station. And all along the way you start thinking about what you honestly would have rather had. And then you remember that you asked for better gas mileage in the first place.

So yeah. I feel like Skyrim is getting rewarded for a) its technical competency and b) for being a Bethesda game that caught the attention of people other than Bethesda fans. It did that because of how it looks, and for big fucking dragons. And I just don't think it's worth "GOTY." Just like Oblivion and FO3, they came close to GOTY but they ultimately failed to earn it in the opinion of core fans. I feel the same way about Skyrim. It's gotten closer to any of them to deserving it. But it still falls short of the mark when it comes to satisfaction. I'm not, nor have I ever been, satisfied with a vanilla Bethesda offering. And as long as they keep offloading the responsibility on to modders to reach the next level of design, I'm never going to be.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 04:37:55 pm by nenjin »
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Leatra

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #4391 on: January 07, 2012, 05:57:52 pm »

I don't see Skyrim as a true RPG. You clearly have a different definition of RPG than me.
Aha

AHAH

Oh my god this is gonna spiral out of control. All sorts of semantics and definitions and fallacies all over the place. I'm just gonna go with the position of 'insulting the devs is bad form and we kinda have Issues and Problems with expectations on these forums, so I get riled up when things get perfect reviews but are total soul-crushing disappointments because limbs don't dismember or something'.
Well, there is difference between an Action-RPG game and a hardcore true RPG game and it can be seen in this game. A RPG doesn't need dungeons and bosses.

Quote
I'm not, nor have I ever been, satisfied with a vanilla Bethesda offering. And as long as they keep offloading the responsibility on to modders to reach the next level of design, I'm never going to be.
Whenever someone points out a flaw of the game I always think about saying "Meh, mods will fix it" but that's what Beth needs to do in the first place. I used 2-3 mods just for rebalancing in Morrowind and Oblivion. Maybe modders could create a better game if they unite and have resources :P
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Ghills

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #4392 on: January 07, 2012, 07:49:45 pm »

Maybe modders could create a better game if they unite and have resources :P

Your wish is (almost) granted:
OpenMW reimplements the Morrowind engine.  Currently still being developed, the plan is for it to include better graphics and a lot of stuff that the Morrowind Script Extender did: http://openmw.org/
Project Aedra is also redoing the engine with a focus on better performance and multiplayer potential:
http://aedra.sourceforge.net/

Modders + Open Source = Win.
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Leatra

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #4393 on: January 07, 2012, 08:02:28 pm »

Maybe modders could create a better game if they unite and have resources :P

Your wish is (almost) granted:
OpenMW reimplements the Morrowind engine.  Currently still being developed, the plan is for it to include better graphics and a lot of stuff that the Morrowind Script Extender did: http://openmw.org/
Project Aedra is also redoing the engine with a focus on better performance and multiplayer potential:
http://aedra.sourceforge.net/

Modders + Open Source = Win.

Interesting. Bethesda is really good at creating a canvas for modders, if not really good at making games. I still have Morrowind on my PC and I'll keep an eye on this one.
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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #4394 on: January 09, 2012, 06:27:45 pm »

There is only one thing that I like in Oblivion/Skyrim that can't be modded into Morrowind: A physics engine. The world just seems so fake without it.

EDIT: Which Aedra seems to support.
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