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Author Topic: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim  (Read 1615799 times)

Sensei

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3030 on: November 29, 2011, 06:35:53 pm »

See, what we need is a "Shiva, God of Destruction" perk- so you can quadruple-cast.
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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3031 on: November 29, 2011, 06:38:52 pm »

That physically hurt me. The words leapt from the screen and punched me in the face.
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forsaken1111

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3032 on: November 29, 2011, 06:49:45 pm »

ummm okey.
can anybody think of any reason why anyone/i should use Wall of Fire/frost/lightining, Incirinate/Thunderstrike/Ice Spear spells? they seem so.... forced, if you know what i mean.
Its kind a disapoiniting to reach 75+ level in destruction just to continiue useing Fireball/Chain Lightining.
Why wouldn't you use Incinerate, Thunderbolt or Ice Spear? They hit hard, especially dual cast. The wall spells are semi-useful though they don't do enough damage unless you can get an enemy to stand on them.

In my pure mage game I use thunderbolt as my main damage spell backed up by a pair of summoned dremora lords. I'm level 48 on master and shit is tough.
There's one obvious and quite bad reason to only use the first spells: the 'damage per mana spent' ratio (which actually is the DPS). The last spells have some nice collateral effects, but I don't know if these effects can offset their bad DPS.
DPS is not damager/mana ratio. I can put out more damage in less time with my massive magicka reserve casting the top tier spells. And yes I have custom enchanted equipment which drops destruction spell costs to negligible amounts so the mana/damage thing is moot. I only run out of mana if I summon 5-6 dual-cast demora lords in quick succession.
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Microcline

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3033 on: November 29, 2011, 07:12:51 pm »

Bah, just enchant your gear to >=100% destruction cost reduction and spam them.
As forsaken said, DPS is Damage Per Second.  Higher level destruction spells take longer to cast and  can be interrupted, so it's always better to use firebolt/fireball because it deals more damage and can stunlock more reliably.  Destruction magic is ruined by the fact that damage can't be scaled up (so you'll never get to use that cool Sith lightning attack again), the disproportionate cast times, and that stunlocking can be performed with the basic firebolt and works on everything, including giant mecha made of earth bones-defying metal.  It'd also be nice if you could cast more than one rune (I may be wrong about this), allowing for more interesting traps.

I still don't know why they removed spellmaking.  It's like Todd doesn't trust the player to have fun in any ways not explicitly sanctioned by Bethesda.

See, what we need is a "Shiva, God of Destruction" perk- so you can quadruple-cast.
You may be interested in "Infinite Wield (c) (r) (tm)", a daring concept proposed by Todd Howard here <http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=218>

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

*edit: reducing the spell cost to 0 does not appear to reduce cast time
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 08:12:08 pm by Microcline »
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Neonivek

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3034 on: November 29, 2011, 07:19:53 pm »

I should state that 0 cost all spells cast instantly (sort of)
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Astral

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3035 on: November 29, 2011, 08:00:50 pm »


I still don't know why they removed spellmaking.  It's like Todd doesn't trust the player to have fun in any ways not explicitly sanctioned by Bethesda.


Too complicated for a majority of console gamers (Note: I said majority. I don't consider B12r's to be the majority.)

Once they started down the long road of removing features present in Morrowind, it just became a "thing" to simplify the game to prevent it from feeling stagnant, while alienating players that are used to more advanced mechanics.

I'm guessing the main reason for removal of spell crafting is to limit the infinity + 1 nuke spells, or prevention of abuse related to certain spell effects. Also, in the interests of making things look pretty, all spells have their very own effects, and having to code and animate combined effects, especially for destruction spells, is probably a bit of content cut due to the 11/11/11 release date.
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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3036 on: November 29, 2011, 08:06:11 pm »

They changed spells from simply being a projectile with a damage type to a unique set of effects. What kind of spell could you design that wouldn't be basically the same as an existing spell or a combination of some others?
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Sensei

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3037 on: November 29, 2011, 08:13:29 pm »

A more powerful one :V
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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3038 on: November 29, 2011, 08:25:50 pm »

Basing any unique spells I made off of Midas Magic, the Oblivion mod... quite a few, actually.

Though it seems like they did that in the form of Dragon Shouts, limiting usefulness with cooldowns. I would still like to see more damage over time spells, and poison as an actual spell set.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 08:27:30 pm by Astral »
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What Darwin was too polite to say, my friends, is that we came to rule the Earth not because we were the smartest, or even the meanest, but because we have always been the craziest, most murderous motherfuckers in the jungle. -Stephen King's Cell
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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3039 on: November 29, 2011, 08:38:52 pm »

Or returning spells that were in previous TES games...

How about that Vampiric Mist spell described in one of the Destruction skill-boost books? That could have been included. More rune types (stunning, frenzy, etc.), better versions of existing spells to help mages keep up with rising HP values late-game, or size alteration spells just off the top of my head. Skyrim improved greatly of the visual effects of magic but fell short on making it interesting or even balanced.

Whenever I think about the progression of TES games this song always seems to come to mind.
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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3040 on: November 29, 2011, 08:40:55 pm »

Or returning spells that were in previous TES games...

How about that Vampiric Mist spell described in one of the Destruction skill-boost books? That could have been included. More rune types (stunning, frenzy, etc.), better versions of existing spells to help mages keep up with rising HP values late-game, or size alteration spells just off the top of my head. Skyrim improved greatly of the visual effects of magic but fell short on making it interesting or even balanced.

Whenever I think about the progression of TES games this song always seems to come to mind.

To be added in the next DLC. :P
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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3041 on: November 29, 2011, 09:03:27 pm »


I still don't know why they removed spellmaking.  It's like Todd doesn't trust the player to have fun in any ways not explicitly sanctioned by Bethesda.

Too complicated for a majority of console gamers (Note: I said majority. I don't consider B12r's to be the majority.)
I don't really know if complication is the issue, as intuitiveness doesn't always preclude depth.  Look at what Skyrim did with enchanting: removing the ridiculous cost and failure rate was what made the skill far more usable to new players.  It is more hindered by the small number of enchantments available, individual item restrictions, and the lack of conditions (i.e. no CE on weapons, no cast when struck on armors), which are features that would not affect the inherent intuitiveness.  Inexperienced players would likely stick to CE armors and +element weapons, but experienced players could have the complexity of Morrowind's system (say, an armor that provides fire resistance and explodes in an AOE fireball when struck, or one with constant bound summons).

I'm guessing the main reason for removal of spell crafting is to limit the infinity + 1 nuke spells, or prevention of abuse related to certain spell effects. Also, in the interests of making things look pretty, all spells have their very own effects, and having to code and animate combined effects, especially for destruction spells, is probably a bit of content cut due to the 11/11/11 release date.
From my experience, most of the broken spell effects in Morrowind/Oblivion are things you wouldn't notice on your first playthrough (or at least my first playthrough).  I wouldn't think most people would intuit to cast levitate on their enemies, and even then that could be fixed fairly easily (levitation restricted to self, enemies are immune to levitation).  Finally, if the time the player has enough mana to cast the really crazy nuke spells, he's probably powerful enough that it'd be more immersion breaking if he couldn't fly over Vvardenfell wiping cities off the map.

They changed spells from simply being a projectile with a damage type to a unique set of effects. What kind of spell could you design that wouldn't be basically the same as an existing spell or a combination of some others?
If we look at the destruction spells, we see three spell effects (fire damage, ice damage, and lightning damage), and several different conditions (channeled cone, ranged, ranged AOE, rune, wall, non-ranged AOE, and chain).  Worse still, conjuration, illusion, and alteration have gained no new effects from this switch to "unique" spells.  Furthermore, several spells in each of these schools are the same spell with the effect numbers increased (ironically, this was Bethesda's justification for removing spellmaking).  Thus, the only thing that Skyrim has added to destruction magic are four new conditions (channeled cone, rune, wall, and chain).  The spells can still be sorted into the Morrowind/Oblivion spellmaking model of effect + condition, and thus could easily be generalized into the spellmaking system.  While the small number of effects means that spellmaking would be a shadow of its former glory, it would still go a long way towards allowing players to make up for Bethesda's mistakes, such as scaling up the channeled cone destruction effects to make them useful past the first few levels, averting the "padded sumo" gameplay that plagues that late levels, or make up new effect + condition combos (how about a paralyze rune?).
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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3042 on: November 29, 2011, 09:08:25 pm »

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Sensei

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3043 on: November 29, 2011, 09:54:58 pm »

HOW TO MAKE IT MORE FUN:

1. Go to C:\Program Files\Steam\SteamApps\common\skyrim\Data\Interface
2. Open TRANSLATE_English.txt, back it up with a copy
3. Replace strings (sets of words) in the game with something hilarious. Don't touch the ones that start with $, just edit the word/phrase after the tab.
4. Play, or better, get your unwitting friend to play.
5. Profit
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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #3044 on: November 30, 2011, 01:46:52 am »

Bah, just enchant your gear to >=100% destruction cost reduction and spam them.
As forsaken said, DPS is Damage Per Second.  Higher level destruction spells take longer to cast and  can be interrupted, so it's always better to use firebolt/fireball because it deals more damage and can stunlock more reliably.  Destruction magic is ruined by the fact that damage can't be scaled up (so you'll never get to use that cool Sith lightning attack again), the disproportionate cast times, and that stunlocking can be performed with the basic firebolt and works on everything, including giant mecha made of earth bones-defying metal.  It'd also be nice if you could cast more than one rune (I may be wrong about this), allowing for more interesting traps.

I still don't know why they removed spellmaking.  It's like Todd doesn't trust the player to have fun in any ways not explicitly sanctioned by Bethesda.

See, what we need is a "Shiva, God of Destruction" perk- so you can quadruple-cast.
You may be interested in "Infinite Wield (c) (r) (tm)", a daring concept proposed by Todd Howard here <http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=218>

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

*edit: reducing the spell cost to 0 does not appear to reduce cast time

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