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[SeriousConcentrate]

Would it be possible for Pasha (not his entire regiment, just him) to sneak in the gates after some of AF's forces leave to Split Army and cause chaos within the city? Start fires and whatnot?

Edit: All I'm going to say is if it's possible for an injured man to sneak out of a camp full of tense people while he's under watch, then it should be possible for one healthy man, skilled in the art of moving about undiscovered, to enter a city in the confusion of battle...

[Ardas]

Ok, enough arguing.
Things of logic and common sense that should affect what options one has:
 
city is surrounded with earthworks and makeshift defences. That should negate any ability to flank or split Ligorian soldiers.(how can you split units that are behind a palisade?) We on the other hand should retain ability to flank or outright block enemy troops since there are only two points from which enemy can emerge.
I am also questioning how the tactics are worked out. If AF is captured by us, should not the enemy forces get a slight penalty instead of carrying on as usual? I find it ridiculous that an adjutant can simply carry on and do his master's job as nothing happened. There is a reason why AF is leading and not the adjutant. Unless every soldier in DE army is carrying general's baton in his bag.(don't think so).

All of the above are the things that we played out precisely to negate any enemy advantage. As it stands now, we should have dropped any RP and simply roll for battle as soon as we got to Mileth, because apparently RP and rolls are happening in separate worlds.

And even if the dice go against us, I do not worry.
AF is probably getting the axe if we lose, so no use gloating or offering us options.

Over and out. Be back in 10 hours.

E: WTF? AF is in my tent, under guard! how can he escape with broken ribs?! GM should not even roll for this, this should be auto-fail.
E2: 13 tactics? And -4 penaltly  to us? For what? For siege? I'm sorry but I am calling serious BS unless someone explains how and why is everyone ignoring siege conditions. There is no space in front of the earthworks to even apply any manouvers! When units come out of the city, they do so one by one. They are in front of earthen fortifications and 5 ligorian regiments.  No amount of tactics in the world should be able to save you from the fact that it is impossible to execute any manouvers when city is under siege. If anything, its DE soldiers coming out one regiment by one straight into meatgrinder in front of them.

[Shootandrun]

There's four gates, so four regiments can come out at the same time. If there's four regiments on the field, I don't see why the captain of another regiment behind the walls waiting for his turn to get out should give any bonus to the troops fighting outside. So in my opinion, it's simple. Terenos can use as much tactics as he wants, except he can only use the units that are actually doing something outside of the walls to get a tactical bonus (ie for the first turn he will have four units outside, for the second turn he will have another four units outside + the survivors of the first round and so on). I think it makes more sense than what Terenos wants to do right now.

Also, why do we have a -4 to tactics? The besieged troops lack space to manoeuver while we can do anything we want, and we get the malus?

[Sheb]

Actually, you should get a delay: he got much less ground to cover to go from one side to the other than you do.

[Ardas]

Delay? I am marshal with 3 PCs working together. We got all sides covered and Mileth is without its leader an no space for manouvers. If anything, Terenos should be heavily penalized and with no tactical options. This is a bloody siege, not a field skirmish.

[Terenos]

Because we dont HAVE any rules for 'siege conditions'. I dont see a damn rule that says you can do anything by making some earthworks. I dont see a damn rule that negates or penalizes my ability to perform tactics just cause I'm beseiged. Its simple. You did an action (And there was no roll for it) and you want that action to basically remove any ability I have to win this fight.

Turns out that theres no logical reason for that.

I see no reason for 'earthworks' or 'sieging' to deny me tactical opportunities, or penalize me heavily. Keep fighting and I argue for a bonus. Why should I get a bonus? Your troops aren't everywhere. Your troops are not psychic and cannot respond to an attack somewhere else. There is the matter of timing to consider. My forces are attacking yours, it may take time for troops to get all the way around. Longer if they are perhaps interfered with by my archers shooting them from the walls. (Edit, Hey if your earthworks are right up on the walls wouldnt I get to destroy that bonus with archers?)

Not only that it turns out the Queen is attacking negating any bonuses you might get from waiting for my troops to come out.

And yeah, I am working at a penalty here. I dont have my +1 tactics to add to the fight. Is it a huge penalty? No. Could the rules maybe be reworked?

No. If you do that then theres no point in allowing the enemy time to besiege you, any fortification becomes useless since every battle will occur in the field.
You guys get a -4 malus because my tactics outweighs yours.
"Unit or PC bonuses (e.g. from Training) can provide bonuses to the Tactics roll. Enemy tactical bonuses decrease the tactics roll."

Not only that, Ignore gates. I could lower my troops over the side of the walls or something. Or fast moving formations create gaps in your thin line of soldiers as let me see here.. 8 regiments are encircling a city?
--
Sure, I proly cant sneak my character out, but I'm going to try. I might even have help! And SC sure you can try to avoid the battle, but wouldn't that deny them your +1 to tactics? Cause I can always throw down more Split Forces.

[NUKE9.13]

Beasts below.
Chaos! Arguments! The worst parts of GMing!

People, people:
1)Terenos has 6 tactician regiments. That means he has 6 highly competent sub-commanders. We can assume that he made plans in case of treachery, so the troops are still following 'his' orders, as interpreted by his sub-commanders. The only penalty his army will suffer-this battle- from him not leading personally is not receiving his tactics bonus.

2)Tactics, and bonuses to tactics, are highly abstracted. Please think of it this way: if you have the lower tactics score, you are- IC- less capable of doing clever things with your army. You are more susceptible to trickery. Perhaps the DE will make a feint, and you will send your forces surging forwards to counter them, whereupon the rest of his army will sneak out another gate, allowing them to flank and split and whatnot to their hearts desire?
Sure, sure. OOC you think, no, that's stupid, we would never do that. But if you have the lower tactics score, you are stupider than the enemy.
Now, you can argue for and try to set up some sort of tactics bonus for your side. But this would not be a flat bonus- there would be something on the other side of the scales. For example, if you want a tactics bonus from being entrenched, you should receive a strength penalty for being entrenched and thus less willing to put your backs into it and actually attack the enemy. Or something like that, you know? We can argue details if you choose to do this.

3)Speaking of tactics bonuses: you will notice that Taricus has ordered all forces to attack blindly. That is pretty much the worst strategy if you want a tactics bonus.

4)The Arctic Fox cannot just escape, no. But he can be rescued by his troops. It might require a tactic to get him from within your camp, but it can be done.

[SeriousConcentrate]

I'm not avoiding the battle. Entering Mileth and burning down buildings (probably causing a riot in the process when I hit such locations as the granaries, which I will be aiming for) and so forth is going to throw you in complete disarray. I agree with the idea that if you only have four exits, you should only be able to utilize four units the first turn. That means you have a lot still just sitting around inside, and once the shit hits the fan inside the walls all the units left inside are going to have to deal with that. At the very least the three regiments Mileth already had should want to drop everything and save their fellow people, unless they're just numbers who could give a damn about friends and family. Anyway, Ardas's earthworks/palisades should have a roll; if it goes well they could count as Fortifications or whatever, if it doesn't I dunno.

ninja'd

Also: Taricus is not in command of the army. By rights he shouldn't be ordering anything, and Laythe is pretending to be injured anyway. She's not going to show her face to give those orders.

[Terenos]

Fires happen during a battle, cant just call a time out cause one happened.
Course my whole game plan is to just hurt the Ligorian army, and withdraw so you'd proly get caught -in- Mileth there SC. Not to mention if yer trying to sneak in, you cant be adding a +1 tactics to your side.

To respond to SC: Queen Laythe is crazy. She'll try it. You know she will.

[NUKE9.13]

Also: Taricus is not in command of the army. By rights he shouldn't be ordering anything, and Laythe is pretending to be injured anyway. She's not going to show her face to give those orders.

Hah.
If Laythe only did sensible things, we wouldn't be in this mess.

[SeriousConcentrate]

1. Who cares whether I add +1 to Tactics or not? Apparently you have such an overwhelming advantage there my presence wouldn't help. Inside Mileth, I can do some good.
2. I can shut the gates from inside, you know. Then the units you sent out are stuck outside while the ones inside are putting out fires. And they WILL care when fires are burning up food sources and the like.
3. No one cares how crazy Laythe is, except in the fact that it proves she's unfit to lead this war. She lost any command she had when she tackled you. None of the commanders are going to listen to her.

[Terenos]

Because in the 2nd round, without your bonus, I can make this battle completely unwinnable for the forces of Ligoria.
Im all for lone heroing, but a single man cant keep my city from me by shutting the gates. And Im moving my whole army out so...yeah.

Only..They will. Shes still the queen, No one 'knows' that she did it, they suspect, thanks to the rumors. But they'll still follow her. Cause, yknow, Queen.

[leone313]

And assuming that the Earthworks are out of crossbow range an the whole Ligorian army is staying behind them, and certainly won't run in the open towards your men, they should provide a fortification bonus against your troops which would become de facto attackers...

[Terenos]

And the queen ordered an attack against me. So who gets defensive bonuses? Neither of us.

[SeriousConcentrate]

1. I highly doubt the army is going to do anything if Nikephoros, Kathos, or both tell them 'ignore her order, she hit her head during AF's attack and is talking nonsense.'
2. I really, really doubt you can make the battle 'unwinnable' in two rounds. If you can, then the GMs should be taken to task for letting you have a broken force on character creation. What's the point in playing if, at any time, someone can just be like 'hai i wanna be antagunost' and they're like 'lol have unitz with nuff powah to win every fight'? If that's the case, then either the system needs fixing or there was a terrible oversight in how you were allowed such a force.
3. Uh, yes I can keep you out of Mileth... if I get good enough rolls. We can argue all we like but that's what it comes down to. I'm hedging my bets on a series of decent/good stealth rolls to sabotage the city.