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Author Topic: Why are blunt weapons ever better than edged?  (Read 12115 times)

ChairmanPoo

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Re: Why are blunt weapons ever better than edged?
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2011, 08:57:43 am »

The ones in DIablo 2 look like this. I dont know if they are realistic or not.



I like blunt weapons when playing as barbarian, but mostly because they tend to pack a bigger punch than other types. I favor whirlwind barbs, see...
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Simmura McCrea

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Re: Why are blunt weapons ever better than edged?
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2011, 08:58:00 am »


From wikipedia.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Why are blunt weapons ever better than edged?
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2011, 09:00:04 am »

You know what you get when you make a blade heavy enough to function like a mace or warhammer, able to bash through armor?

An axe. (Which were often used exactly for that purpose, and also the fact that they were fairly fast. I think they were generally used against lighter armor than full plate though, though they were pretty varied weapons)
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Re: Why are blunt weapons ever better than edged?
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2011, 10:23:27 am »

You might need to find Chinese source. I'll translate some of them. (There are a lot of ancient Chinese wasn't translated in modern time.)

Earliest in (501 A.D) 6th century Southern Qi Dynasty  : 《南史·齊紀下·東昏侯》
"(帝)乃聚兵為固守計,...。尚書舊事,悉充紙鎧。" - "In order to defend (the incoming enemy), (The emperor) ordered to gather his army, ... Ancient books and old documents, are all been used to make armors." The last (effective) emperor called his army to defend his falling dynasty (the dynasty fallen the next year), using probably the national library and offices documents to make armors. Although he failed (not because he lost the battle, but one of the royal family relatives stage a coup), and it's the first creative idea of using paper armors.

In Tang Dynasty (9th century) : 《新唐書》卷113
"置備征軍,凡千人,襞紙為鎧,勁矢不能洞。" -  "Preparing equipments and recruiting an army, totally thousands of soldiers. Cutting papers to make armors, even the strongest bow(arrows) can not shoot through them". This early documentation is probably why so many translations said it's good against arrows. (It doesn't say it's bad against other weapons). But if an army all used this as primary armors, it must be effective in some way.

A little later after Tang Dynasty (10th century) : 《南唐書》卷三
"民間又有自相率、以紙為甲、農器為兵者,號白甲兵。" - "Civilians managing their own militia armies, using paper to make armors, and farming equipments as weapons. Calling themselves White Armor Army". As the great Tang Dynasty fallen, there is chaos and farmers rose up on their own, and even forming their own short lived kingdoms in southern China, called "South Tang".

The next united Dynasty - Northern Song in 11th century :
"诏江南、淮南州军造纸甲三万", "詔委逐路州軍以遠年賬籍製造" - "The emperor ordered the two southern states : (their names 江南, 淮南) armies to make and equip 30 thousand paper armors", "The emperor entrusted the following state armies to make armors using old accounting books and documents." These records showed that at this era not only it was been produced at large quantity, but also made the recycling of papers quite effectively.

When the Song Dynasty lost northern China, the Southern Song Dynasty at 12th - 13th century :
"所有本寨軍器都稍足備,但水軍所需者紙甲。今本寨乃有鐵甲百副,今當存留其半,而以五十副就本軍換易紙甲。" - "This army camp has most of the military equipments ready, but the naval army (not navy, but soldiers fight on terrains with plenty of rivers and lakes in southern China) needs paper armors. Now this camp already has 100 steel armors, so (the captain of the camp) I will remain half of them, and trade the rest half 50 sets with (equal amount) of paper armors." This record shows surprisingly not only it's at the same equality as steel armors, but also it's been used at wet terrains. It's better after it's wet, not as you think that it will be less effective.

As late until 17th century (1621) in Ming Dynasty :
"天雨地濕,鐵甲易生金肅爛,必不可用矣。倭夷土賊率用火銃神器,而甲有藤有角,皆可用。但鉛子俱能洞入,且體重難久。今擇其利者,步兵性有輯甲,用輯布不等。若紙綿俱薄,則箭亦可入,無論鉛子。今需厚一寸用綿密輯,可長至膝。" - "(In southern China) Steel armors are easily rusted, and must not used them. Foreign invaders (Japanese and others) and pirates use fire arms, there are many materials like rattan whip to be used to make armors against them. But lead bullets can still penetrate them, and they are to heavy for soldiers to wear for a long time. Now the better way is to make composition armors for the foot solders, using papers and cloth as materials. If the paper and cotton cloth are too thin, even the arrows can shoot through them, let along lead bullets. You need at least 1 Chinese inch (3.4 cm in Ming Dynasty) thick and pact tightly with composition materials (to be affective), and making them as body length from neck to knee." As for more than a thousand years of making paper armor, it reaches at peak that it became a standard armor type, and possible had standard making processes and materials. And possibly only lost due to the increase effectiveness of fire arms render it obsolete (as any other armors). It can even withstand the early less effective fire arms. 

Hence most of it doesn't mentioned it's effectiveness against other weapons, but it does equip a large portion of an army in latter era. It's safe to say that it has to be some what effective to be able to withstand other armies using steel armors.
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Kay12

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Re: Why are blunt weapons ever better than edged?
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2011, 10:27:58 am »

Axes do have their disadvantages though... making them pack enough mass while retaining ease-of-use is quite hard. Also, the mass can be used effectively only by swinging the weapon, which may be risky in close combat.

I must say that some medieval weapons were really smart. For example, the halberd packs everything one would need for fighting a mounted knight while not being useless against foot soldiers either. It must've been hard to learn to use the right "point" in each situation, though. And then there's the rapid fire chu-ko-nu, although I think most games exaggerate that a bit.
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Re: Why are blunt weapons ever better than edged?
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2011, 10:37:50 am »

Heh. It's the same old AP vs. HP. Wanna hurt armored things or unarmored things?

Hmmm... actually now in the Arrowhead article it seems that Bodkins were just cheap arrowheads since they don't have any hardened points... You know what, they need to call up Mythbusters and actually see what hardened bodkins would do against plate armor coming from a good longbow.
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Re: Why are blunt weapons ever better than edged?
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2011, 10:40:28 am »

You know what you get when you make a blade heavy enough to function like a mace or warhammer, able to bash through armor?

An axe. (Which were often used exactly for that purpose, and also the fact that they were fairly fast. I think they were generally used against lighter armor than full plate though, though they were pretty varied weapons)

There are many ways of making "long" and heavy weapons
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The favorite weapon of Chinese God of War - Guan Yu
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Or you can used a weird shape heavy head weapon
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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MaximumZero

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Re: Why are blunt weapons ever better than edged?
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2011, 11:37:36 am »

Axes are much harder to use than maces, for the simple fact that you still have to hit with the edge. Not to mention that most axes for your average soldier are two-handed weapons, and you lose the protection of a shield. Axes are great for hitting things that are standing still (like trees,) but not so good at hitting a moving target with any kind of power, unless you get really lucky or are really good at it.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Why are blunt weapons ever better than edged?
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2011, 11:46:43 am »

MaximumZero, there were a large number of one handed battleaxes, and were often only a foot or two long, with most two handed axes venturing into the realm of pole axes. And yes, they do require a clean hit, which gives the mace an advantage - but they are also quite capable of cutting and hooking, and their design often played to those advantages, with the haft allowing a soldier to shift their grip for different purposes and ranges (something swords didn't really allow you to do). The need for a clean hit made them slightly less effective against armored units, especially in unskilled hands, but they were still able to do more damage than swords and had the benefit of being easier to use against unarmored target and targets inside your optimal range.

Quote
Axes do have their disadvantages though... making them pack enough mass while retaining ease-of-use is quite hard. Also, the mass can be used effectively only by swinging the weapon, which may be risky in close combat.
Axes were usually built to work with hooking and and slashing as well.
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scriver

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Re: Why are blunt weapons ever better than edged?
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2011, 11:47:36 am »

Could someone grab me a picture of what the "real war hammers" are supposed to look like?  I don't know that I've ever seen one... thanks in advance =)
War hammers are made like that. They look like this, for reference
...
...
;)
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Kay12

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Re: Why are blunt weapons ever better than edged?
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2011, 11:55:36 am »

Axes are much harder to use than maces, for the simple fact that you still have to hit with the edge. Not to mention that most axes for your average soldier are two-handed weapons, and you lose the protection of a shield. Axes are great for hitting things that are standing still (like trees,) but not so good at hitting a moving target with any kind of power, unless you get really lucky or are really good at it.

Depends a bit on axe, though. A light tomahawk or hand axe functions very differently - of course, they won't do as well against armor as battle axes.
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Phmcw

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Re: Why are blunt weapons ever better than edged?
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2011, 12:11:21 pm »

You have to keep in mind that even with a mace or a warhammer, you are pretty much guaranteed to have your blow glance harmlessly against heavy European armor : Plate armor + chain mail + gambeson  (and I saw people wearing them at LARP, it didn't seems to bother them too much)
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Why are blunt weapons ever better than edged?
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2011, 12:14:13 pm »

Which is why the hooking ability of axes isn't something that should just be ignored either. From my understanding, fights against heavily armored foes not uncommonly devolved to tripping and wrestling and grapples.
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Why are blunt weapons ever better than edged?
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2011, 12:16:38 pm »

While lightly armored archers run around cutting everyones throats while they couldnt get up... lol.

Eagleon

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Re: Why are blunt weapons ever better than edged?
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2011, 01:00:33 pm »

Sorry, something bugged me from earlier.
Real swords are actually quite light, nothing like the heavy replica ones. I don't think a mace that light would ever be any good :P
With flanges, spikes, etc. maces approached swords in weight, both single and two-handed. Faster swings also mean better recovery, which is even more important when you're relying on blunt force to break bones. A sword will cause bleeding no matter what and was pretty much always holy-shit-dangerous in close quarters, when there's nothing standing between you and horrific infection but faith (I argue this is why they were so popular, alongside spears - sheer intimidation goes a long way for winning a fight), but you can shrug off an off hit with a blunt weapon if your life depends on it. Because (especially against suitable armor) you might not provide a crippling or traumatic injury with your first strike, you have to be able to hit multiple times before the opponent can respond. Even for heavy armor, the weight of a weapon is providing follow-through and little else, which can be compensated for by a stronger blow as long as it's built not to break.
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