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[counting]

Not sure what you're talking about... Trademarking even by hiring someone to do it for you will cost at most around a thousand bucks... You can do it for -free- if you know the process and are willing to fill up all the paperwork yourself.

It's not an auction.

Nope, registration has registration fees. You have to pay. There are other "filing fee" that's for the lawyers.

The US fees.
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/qs/ope/fee2009september15.htm#tm

The EU (OHIM) fees
http://oami.europa.eu/ows/rw/pages/CTM/feesPayment/feesPayment.en.do

It's paid to the patent and trademark office.

Hm, alright... But still cheap. I don't see the point of even mentioning the price.

I didn't mention a price. Just said it takes money You said it's free. I only provide information. I don't understand why you brought it up it's free anyway. I do handle the IP (patent/trademarks) in the past (for my old company, since I dealing financial), so I know it's not cheap. (Even without lawyers). You think it's cheap is just calculating the basic fees (10 year). And you have to maintaining it. There are many additional fees (how you dress the trademark, pictures, etc). Generally, about 4 to 5 years ago, I remember it's something like $10,000 USD a package by case. (we chose, it's about middle price and middle protection) for our IP services (10 years) and not include paying the lawyers' fees and firms (which paid annually). It's really quite handy asking someone else to handle it if you have the money, but you have to trust a good one.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

Not a good game

that's one assumption too many




i'd argue that "scrolls" in the context of an rpg set in a medieval fantasy universe is not an arbitrary word at all, and shouldn't be trademark'able

[Soulwynd]

I didn't mention a price. Just said it takes money You said it's free.

Well, I was wrong about that, but even with that price, it's pretty irrelevant to the situation. They already accepted their trademark.  They shouldn't contest notch trademarking it, they should contest the entity that allowed the trademark.

My only real annoyance is at the extortion kind of letter.

Not a good game

that's one assumption too many

The day you make a game that's all about pelting animals and making scrolls out of the pelts, I will take that assumption back.

=p

[Askot Bokbondeler]

picture pokemon, but you got to kill them and inscribe magic runes on their tanned hides to conjure their powers. there's also nazi dinossaurs.

[counting]

I didn't mention a price. Just said it takes money You said it's free.

Well, I was wrong about that, but even with that price, it's pretty irrelevant to the situation. They already accepted their trademark.  They shouldn't contest notch trademarking it, they should contest the entity that allowed the trademark.

My only real annoyance is at the extortion kind of letter.

I already mentioned it in previous post.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 

Drop the act already. You know you HAVE to pre check for previous contradiction, BEFORE registration. And it's done 6 months ago. No way Notch has no clue its coming.

 I thought the reason this was considered a flimsy case was because it wasn't a contradiction. Its so clearly different from The Elder Scrolls that such checks would skip over it. I don't know how through their office is, but it really does seem like nobody thought this would be a problem until lawyers contacted them about it recently.

The registration office is a "passive" official agency. You can registered them as long as you have the money. The process is like search(by applicant)->format check->classification check->grounds check->translations check(in different language)->published. It's all formal and official by the book. And the agency is often understaffed. Many checks are just formality if you knew what you are dealing with it can be done fast. Then the registration process is done. When a violation occurred. It won't pass this stage. And Notch's SCROLLS has already pass it. It's now enter another process when an opposed claims made challenges. (He already got a claim) As I said if Notch's lawyers haven't warned him about the possible contradiction, the lawyers were no doing their jobs. Or possible they did, and Notch decided it's worth the shot, and when the result is about to come back in Notch's favor, it raised other parties reactions. And since Notch didn't want to back down. The process is going into official legal battle. And it all happened before Notch's first tweet (months to weeks ago). The announcement is just a legal tool. (It will be a strong evidence by the plaintiff on courts if necessary, saying "I warn you in advance, black and white, you can't claimed not knowing the situation anymore", lawyers' way of saying what I am saying "drop the act"). The battle had been going on much longer behind the scene.

And Notch reacts like

Code: [Select]

Just got a letter from Bethesta's lawyers. They claim "Scrolls" infringes on their trademark and everyone will confuse it with Skyrim.

Not an act? I don't buy it. If he doesn't already know it's a battle about the new filing "THE ELDER SCROLLS V: SKYRIM" trademark registration. He would have used the words "The elder scrolls" vs "scrolls". But at least Notch was honest about what it's about - exclusive right of using certain trademark. An IP is not just protecting itself but it's derived ground. The using of "SCROLLS" is an attack, not an defense trademark like "THE ELDER SCROLLS V: SKYRIM", which covers much less ground. And in fact after Morrowind, the legal team already done their IP protection coverage ground, very extensively. Hence any "ATTACK" will triggered an reaction. (Whether it's a proper or over-react by lawyers, I'd say it's just they are doing their usual businesses).

P.S. It's not entering civil lawsuit yet. Just opposed the registration agency. (Against the agency who pass the registration). It's still in the negotiation process. (How I love lawyers who can make themselves useful before lawsuit). But it's what they say you need to pack (stock enough evidences using legal tools) before hit the road.

And you are correct, it's currently the opposed to the registration agency, not into civil lawsuit yet. (Notch's company Mojang is the 3rd party, related to the case). The letter is just for future possible legal usage (with clear date as well). And things still under the table (negotiations etc.). If the opposition indeed in effect, Notch's original claims will be ineffective and the agency will notified Notch. Notch can either counter-opposed, or Notch can still keeps using the name "SCROLLS" regardless. In the mean time the the plaintiff ZeniMax will have more legal ground to sue Notch for trademark infringement (they can do it with or without the ruling regarding registration agency, but if it did, then the case will have better winning chance). Provide legal ground that they have already informed the defendant they don't authorized the use. They can just called Notch and recorded the conversation, but letters written in black and white are more solid and uncontroversial. Lawyers like to make things formal so everything can be deal with words more clearly (and easier counter-defense), if you deal with lawyers you will understand how they like "let's clear this terms".

The registrations agencies are built for preventing every time an infringement occurs under common law, it has to go to the court. And reduce the accidentally infringement. Sometimes the decision of registration agency is enough for the losing party to turn around and seeking another better trademark, preventing things going into civil lawsuit.

[counting]

Markus Persson
@notch Markus Persson
@carlmanneh I'm bringing an awesome letter for you to read! Spoiler: we're getting sued!
17 hours ago via Twitter for Android

So Notch (Mojang AB I presumed) finally got sue. I guess it's the civil lawsuit against the using of "SCROLLS" allowing future injunction.

[Tilla]

I hope they get a judge like the one in the Tim Langdell 'Edge' trademark case. He got laughed out of court.

[Charismatic]

Well, to be honest, if their main beef with Notch is that his trademark uses part of theirs, they should by that token be pursuing lawsuits against everyone who has made a game with 'The' in its title since TES became trademarked. >:(What the fuck, Bethesda?

[G-Flex]

Well, to be honest, if their main beef with Notch is that his trademark uses part of theirs, they should by that token be pursuing lawsuits against everyone who has made a game with 'The' in its title since TES became trademarked. >:(What the fuck, Bethesda?

The argument isn't that he's using a word that exists within their trademark, it's that the specific word could cause confusion between products (or product origins). The identify of the word matters.

[Sensei]

There has GOT to be another trademarked game out there with the word "scrolls" in it. I could swear I've at least seen multiple scrolls of whatever games.

Edit: Looking for some...

[Sensei]

Other games with "Scrolls" in the title: First batch from a Gamespot search... some are old and some are different genres from TSE, but still carries weight I think.

Dungeon Scroll: Not actually using "scrolls" but FAR more likely to be confused by name with The Elder Scrolls, in my opinion, than just Scrolls..

The Wizard's Scrolls

The Magnetic Scrolls Collection Sold under this title, a collection of games by developer "Magnetic Scrolls"

Flying Dragon: The Secret Scroll Okay, it's a subtitle, but still... Elder scroll, secret scroll, dungeon scroll...

Urban Yeti. Absolutely no connection to the word scroll. Just thought I'd let you know it exists. It does. Really.

The Scrolls of Abadon

Aztec Scroll

This seems to be the extent of a non-exhaustive search (googling "scrolls game -mojand -elder" doesn't find much else). Frankly I'm surprised I didn't find more. I can say for certain that some of these predate The Elder Scrolls and Bethesda Softworks entirely, and some of these are still out there now, but I'm sure if some of the older ones are expired or owned by defunct companies. Still puts a hole in the suit's case, I like to think.

[counting]

I don't think any of them registered under CTM (Community Trade Mark for EU). And trademark is regional. And I haven't found any using the word "scroll" in WIPO-madrid (international registrations). There are only "The Elder Scrolls"(word) registered in CTM. There are some registered containing sequence of "scroll". (numbers depending on what you think of "scrolly", "g-scroll", most are none-related).

But the usage of "scrolls" is not just related with registered trademark. You can called your game whatever name you like (unregistered). Most developers don't bother spending money to register and maintain IP right (let the legal problem slide, and only deal with them when they got famous), most they don't think the money from selling games is worth it. But this time Notch actively registered (or trying to) a word that is controversial in legal terms, and it got published. So the big B has to fight on the surface of legal ground.

Come to think of it, it's a complement to Notch's success, they put so much effort in it, means they really think Notch's Scrolls game will be a possible big hit and famous. So they will play the legal dance of who got more famous out of end deal. And probably end-up paying less money than some publicity campaigns. (Or is this already in one of the campaign? It will benefit Notch as well. Free news converge). And if Notch somehow wins, Notch's game will not be indie anymore (some say he already aren't).

[Virex]

Other games with "Scrolls" in the title: First batch from a Gamespot search... some are old and some are different genres from TSE, but still carries weight I think.

Dungeon Scroll: Not actually using "scrolls" but FAR more likely to be confused by name with The Elder Scrolls, in my opinion, than just Scrolls..

The Wizard's Scrolls

The Magnetic Scrolls Collection Sold under this title, a collection of games by developer "Magnetic Scrolls"

Flying Dragon: The Secret Scroll Okay, it's a subtitle, but still... Elder scroll, secret scroll, dungeon scroll...

Urban Yeti. Absolutely no connection to the word scroll. Just thought I'd let you know it exists. It does. Really.

The Scrolls of Abadon

Aztec Scroll

This seems to be the extent of a non-exhaustive search (googling "scrolls game -mojand -elder" doesn't find much else). Frankly I'm surprised I didn't find more. I can say for certain that some of these predate The Elder Scrolls and Bethesda Softworks entirely, and some of these are still out there now, but I'm sure if some of the older ones are expired or owned by defunct companies. Still puts a hole in the suit's case, I like to think.

Of those, The Wizard's Scrolls is probably the only one close enough to the Elder Scrolls to even bother with, because the chance of confusion occurring between the word Elder and the word Dungeon is negligible.


Besides that, copy right law explicitly states that a company does not have to pursue legal action against every possible infraction, but is instead free to chose what to pursue while retaining all it's rights. So a company can let a similar title slip if they do not think it's worth their time, without that descision having influence on further cases.

[counting]

I was thinking if this falls into the condition of imminent infringement? Anyone with IP law expertise? The lawsuit should be about something not actually at the time when infringement happens. But when there is an intend, then the infringement imminently will happen (actual action).

Notch announce his intend of publishing the game with that name. So even he haven't actually selling or even completing the game, the infringement claim is still valid. I don't know if this is the right use or not.

[G-Flex]

Besides that, copy right law [...]

This has nothing to do with copyrights or copyright law. Copyright law is completely irrelevant.

No idea why this still needs to be said.