Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Duke 2.0]

Drop the act already. You know you HAVE to pre check for previous contradiction, BEFORE registration. And it's done 6 months ago. No way Notch has no clue its coming.

 I thought the reason this was considered a flimsy case was because it wasn't a contradiction. Its so clearly different from The Elder Scrolls that such checks would skip over it. I don't know how through their office is, but it really does seem like nobody thought this would be a problem until lawyers contacted them about it recently.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Besides, he could've seen the trouble coming miles before he registered it. The Elder Scrolls are pretty well-known and naming a game "Scrolls" is on the same level as starting a software company called Millisoft.

You do know that scrolls are a thing right? Bethesda didn't invent them. When someone says to me, look at this scroll (they don't, but bear with me), I don't think about The Elder Scrolls. Hell, no one even calls them that most of the time. Everyone addresses them solely by the titles, Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. Saying that he "should have seen trouble coming" isn't all that different from saying that a woman should "have seen being assaulted coming when she wore skimpy clothing".

[Ninteen45]

I know Notch will win and Zenimax still keeps its THE ELDER SCROLLS name. Win/win.

[Virex]

Besides, he could've seen the trouble coming miles before he registered it. The Elder Scrolls are pretty well-known and naming a game "Scrolls" is on the same level as starting a software company called Millisoft.

You do know that scrolls are a thing right? Bethesda didn't invent them. When someone says to me, look at this scroll (they don't, but bear with me), I don't think about The Elder Scrolls. Hell, no one even calls them that most of the time. Everyone addresses them solely by the titles, Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. Saying that he "should have seen trouble coming" isn't all that different from saying that a woman should "have seen being assaulted coming when she wore skimpy clothing".

You don't know what you're talking about, do you? A trademark is confined to the markets it is used in. You are right that a scroll is an object, but the usage of the word scroll as referring to an object when talking about the gaming industry is next to non-existent. There's only one thing that scrolls could have referred to when talking about game titles and that is the Elder Scroll series, and that series is pretty well-known. If you were to walk up to a random gamer and ask him about "That scrolls game" the first thing they'd think about, at least prior to this whole mess, would either be Oblivion or Skyrim. That is compelling reason to want to avoid brand confusion and hence you're treading a very fine line if you name your game Scrolls.


Besides, even though girls have every right to do so, I don't think any of them would go parading through Paris' Banlieus in a bikini exactly for this reason. The law can't prevent everything, no matter how much you'd like it.

[Duke 2.0]

If you were to walk up to a random gamer and ask him about "That scrolls game" the first thing they'd think about, at least prior to this whole mess, would either be Oblivion or Skyrim.

 And this is where you continue to get the same thing wrong.

 If you walk up to somebody on the streets and ask about "That scrolls game" they will have no idea what you are talking about. Even I would not know what you are talking about until additional context is given.

[counting]

BTW, "THE ELDER SCROLLS V: SKYRIM", actually still under examination, since it's only being filed so recently 7/13. It's Notch has the high ground (got a published trademark since 7/29). "The Elder scrolls" from 2 very old registration claims are not the "upcoming main battle" here. (It's nearly unchallengeable, but "SCROLLS" will challenge it in legal ground anyway). And whether a trademark is distinguishable or not, is not just word to word comparison, but more of an association related.

Hypothetical : When "SCROLLS" as a registered trademark, people will think about hey it's that game "SCROLLS". And people who don't know about it, but heard about "THE ELDER SCROLLS", and heard someone said it's a hit, MAYBE thinking it's the same line of products, and go to buy "SCROLLS". The publicity cost used in pushing "THE ELDER SCROLLS V: SKYRIM" will be transfer to Notch, who may not have much money putting into publicity campaign. It's stealing publicity (pushing brand takes efforts and money). So trademark has to be distinctive enough, or targeting different clienteles/market (and why there is class different). Since they are under the same class, it has to be somehow identifiable.

And it's not those who actually "knew(a lot)" about "SCROLLS" and "THE ELDER SCROLLS" need to be tested (most of us probably won't qualify), but those has potential to buy both of them, and haven't heard or knew either of them need to be tested. Then see if they can associate the trademarks with different products. Shorter trademark often has advantage on its side. The controversy still exists, since SCROLLS are not somewhat unique as Minecraft. But it's possible that the registration agency considered it alien enough for a game's name. Consider the situation in reverse, and a trademark for game "Fortress" already exist (which it is a trademark just not games) and popular (probably not existed). Now we try to register a trademark "Dwarf Fortress" (BTW, it's not registered or filing for yet). It must be feel like "Dwarf Fortress" is just a particular version of "Fortress". But in reverse it's not the same situation. Since DF probably be more "popular" than any game ended with fortress. A trademark for a game called "Fortress" may be associate with something new. (A FPS game with players storming fortresses maybe?). So it IS possible that Notch's claim of "SCROLLS" as registered trademark CAN hold in the end. (If it gets super duper hit and almost every kid in the world knows about it)

And if "SCROLLS : NEXT VERSION" do exist. Then to people who don't know either of them, when using a name like "SCROLLS V : SKYISLAND", will it not easily be confused with "THE ELDER SCROLLS V: SKYRIM"? It's not just the current use need to be checked. The future uses too. And in THE ELDER SCROLLS the "scrolls" in it isn't anywhere close to the main features. (It's probably one good reason why both pass the registration examinations). You can't register an APPLE selling company APPLE. It's meaning is not the distinguish element in trademark. But the derived implications about it should be used to distinguish trademark.

[Virex]

If you were to walk up to a random gamer and ask him about "That scrolls game" the first thing they'd think about, at least prior to this whole mess, would either be Oblivion or Skyrim.

 And this is where you continue to get the same thing wrong.

 If you walk up to somebody on the streets and ask about "That scrolls game" they will have no idea what you are talking about. Even I would not know what you are talking about until additional context is given.

Then it becomes a question of exactly how prolific the name "The Elder Scrolls" actually is. Bethesda will assert that it's well-known enough to warrant protection, while Notch will claim that it's not that well-known or even that the name of his game is more prolific. Either way, one could have expected Bethesda to try and "protect" it's brand name.

[kaijyuu]

Yeah I don't buy that people think "elder scrolls" when they hear "scrolls."

Compare it to say, Star Wars. If you say "that stars movie" or "that wars movie" no one's gonna have the slightest clue what you're talking about. Similarly, none of the individual words in "the elder scrolls" are really associated with the games. People know these things by the full name.


This is a frivolous lawsuit, no ifs ands or buts. Whether Notch saw it coming, I can't say. It also wouldn't be too far fetched to think he's milking this for publicity... but is that so horrible?

[counting]

Drop the act already. You know you HAVE to pre check for previous contradiction, BEFORE registration. And it's done 6 months ago. No way Notch has no clue its coming.

 I thought the reason this was considered a flimsy case was because it wasn't a contradiction. Its so clearly different from The Elder Scrolls that such checks would skip over it. I don't know how through their office is, but it really does seem like nobody thought this would be a problem until lawyers contacted them about it recently.

The registration office is a "passive" official agency. You can registered them as long as you have the money. The process is like search(by applicant)->format check->classification check->grounds check->translations check(in different language)->published. It's all formal and official by the book. And the agency is often understaffed. Many checks are just formality if you knew what you are dealing with it can be done fast. Then the registration process is done. When a violation occurred. It won't pass this stage. And Notch's SCROLLS has already pass it. It's now enter another process when an opposed claims made challenges. (He already got a claim) As I said if Notch's lawyers haven't warned him about the possible contradiction, the lawyers were no doing their jobs. Or possible they did, and Notch decided it's worth the shot, and when the result is about to come back in Notch's favor, it raised other parties reactions. And since Notch didn't want to back down. The process is going into official legal battle. And it all happened before Notch's first tweet (months to weeks ago). The announcement is just a legal tool. (It will be a strong evidence by the plaintiff on courts if necessary, saying "I warn you in advance, black and white, you can't claimed not knowing the situation anymore", lawyers' way of saying what I am saying "drop the act"). The battle had been going on much longer behind the scene.

And Notch reacts like

Code: [Select]

Just got a letter from Bethesta's lawyers. They claim "Scrolls" infringes on their trademark and everyone will confuse it with Skyrim.

Not an act? I don't buy it. If he doesn't already know it's a battle about the new filing "THE ELDER SCROLLS V: SKYRIM" trademark registration. He would have used the words "The elder scrolls" vs "scrolls". But at least Notch was honest about what it's about - exclusive right of using certain trademark. An IP is not just protecting itself but it's derived ground. The using of "SCROLLS" is an attack, not an defense trademark like "THE ELDER SCROLLS V: SKYRIM", which covers much less ground. And in fact after Morrowind, the legal team already done their IP protection coverage ground, very extensively. Hence any "ATTACK" will triggered an reaction. (Whether it's a proper or over-react by lawyers, I'd say it's just they are doing their usual businesses).

P.S. It's not entering civil lawsuit yet. Just opposed the registration agency. (Against the agency who pass the registration). It's still in the negotiation process. (How I love lawyers who can make themselves useful before lawsuit). But it's what they say you need to pack (stock enough evidences using legal tools) before hit the road.

[Soulwynd]

Not sure what you're talking about... Trademarking even by hiring someone to do it for you will cost at most around a thousand bucks... You can do it for -free- if you know the process and are willing to fill up all the paperwork yourself.

It's not an auction.

[GlyphGryph]

Does Notch even have lawyers doing this for him? I thought he just registered it himself.

[anzki4]

Doesn't matter if it sounds the same, doesn't matter if has a word another trademark has. If it's not the same, it's not the same. Putting an extortion price up ahead is criminal.

So would it be legal to publish a game called "Elder Scrolls"? After all it is not the same as "The Elder Scrolls".

[Duke 2.0]

Does Notch even have lawyers doing this for him? I thought he just registered it himself.

When Notch made the company he wanted to not be screwed over by legal bullshit and got a lawyer to make sure no large blunders would be made. I imagine he is very active now.

[counting]

Not sure what you're talking about... Trademarking even by hiring someone to do it for you will cost at most around a thousand bucks... You can do it for -free- if you know the process and are willing to fill up all the paperwork yourself.

It's not an auction.

Nope, registration has registration fees. You have to pay. There are other "filing fee" that's for the lawyers.

The US fees.
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/qs/ope/fee2009september15.htm#tm

The EU (OHIM) fees
http://oami.europa.eu/ows/rw/pages/CTM/feesPayment/feesPayment.en.do

It's paid to the patent and trademark office.

[Soulwynd]

Doesn't matter if it sounds the same, doesn't matter if has a word another trademark has. If it's not the same, it's not the same. Putting an extortion price up ahead is criminal.

So would it be legal to publish a game called "Elder Scrolls"? After all it is not the same as "The Elder Scrolls".

Oh please, don't troll. You know very well that "The" is an article. In fact, in english speaking languages it would be registered as "Elder Scrolls, The". Don't troll about pluralization either. Registering "The Elder(s)", "The Scroll(s)", "Elder(s)", or "Scroll(s)" is perfectly fine.

"Pelter Scrolls, The" - A game about making scrolls out of animals, should be fine too. Not a good game, but fine to trademark.

Not sure what you're talking about... Trademarking even by hiring someone to do it for you will cost at most around a thousand bucks... You can do it for -free- if you know the process and are willing to fill up all the paperwork yourself.

It's not an auction.

Nope, registration has registration fees. You have to pay. There are other "filing fee" that's for the lawyers.

The US fees.
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/qs/ope/fee2009september15.htm#tm

The EU (OHIM) fees
http://oami.europa.eu/ows/rw/pages/CTM/feesPayment/feesPayment.en.do

It's paid to the patent and trademark office.

Hm, alright... But still cheap. I don't see the point of even mentioning the price.