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[Neonivek]

I don't think the added PR value will be valid for the risk of losing their IP rights and credibility since they already spent millions in protecting them

Ahhh!

So here is how it is going to go then. IF it goes to court and Bethesda is losing then they will settle out of court.

[Grakelin]

Not the civil lawsuit judges. The IP court judges. They are trained professionals to deal with the IP administration and dispute. The process of a formal and peaceful solution with this can be settle by them as third neutral professionals. There is no need for this kind of drama unless it's the PR you are after.

He just posted a precedent.

Unless you have another precedent to offer in return, it's better if you wait quietly and then rush in yelling "AHA AHA I WAS RIGHT BITCHES" if Bethesda declines the offer.

[counting]

I don't think the added PR value will be valid for the risk of losing their IP rights and credibility since they already spent millions in protecting them

Ahhh!

So here is how it is going to go then. IF it goes to court and Bethesda is losing then they will settle out of court.

Bethesda has ALREADY tried to settle for quite some time. This thing has going on for MONTHS. It's only because Notch choose to make it public as a PR tool make it aware to outsiders. And I guess Notch won't give up his CLAIM of ALREADY PUBLISHED TRADEMARK - "SCROLLS" is why settlement never come to a conclusion. Leading Bethesda to enforce the trademark rights, which isn't always leading to civil lawsuits. (Bethesda has done some protective measures). It's possible that they are still in settlement stage. Since I can't find the filed court case number regarding it. (Someone lives in Sweden can check their district court public announcement?) There are so many lawsuits/debates regarding IP rights going on behind the scene we are not aware of.

Not the civil lawsuit judges. The IP court judges. They are trained professionals to deal with the IP administration and dispute. The process of a formal and peaceful solution with this can be settle by them as third neutral professionals. There is no need for this kind of drama unless it's the PR you are after.

He just posted a precedent.

Unless you have another precedent to offer in return, it's better if you wait quietly and then rush in yelling "AHA AHA I WAS RIGHT BITCHES" if Bethesda declines the offer.

PBR (Sweden Court of Patent Appeals) alone handle 1,306 trade mark cases from 2003 to 2007. And the special settlement is just one special case. And in fact that it is preciously so unique make it famous and none standard. I think it's human nature to focus on rare event, and ignore the daily events happening all around.

And please don't trolling if you don't know what you are talking about. check and read something basics about the issue of intellectual property before posting. Here are 2 readings tell you what trademark means in game industry and what consist of infringement.
http://www.gamerlaw.co.uk/2011/03/demystifying-trade-marks-and-games.html
http://www.gamerlaw.co.uk/2011/08/trademark-troubles-bethesda-v-mojang.html

[scriver]

If you promise to stop accusing people of trolling over the drop of a hat, counting, I'll look up that court announcement for you. It's a fair deal, no?

[counting]

If you promise to stop accusing people of trolling over the drop of a hat, counting, I'll look up that court announcement for you. It's a fair deal, no?

I'll edit it out. Just sometimes feel a bit frustrated when people do not bother check basics regarding the matter of discussing before they post.

[Neonivek]

I will say that even with your objection Bathesda will NOT let the court solve this for them unless they are guarenteed to win.

With a out of court settlement they can keep people away from "Scrolls". With the courts going in favor of the game they create precident.

[counting]

I will say that even with your objection Bathesda will NOT let the court solve this for them unless they are guarenteed to win.

With a out of court settlement they can keep people away from "Scrolls". With the courts going in favor of the game they create precident.

Sweden is a civil law system country unbounded by precedents.

I'll describe about how IP laws operate to my knowledge below. (which my country is using civil law system as well. It's a bit different with the common law system in US and UK familiar with.)

IP (Intellectual Property) opposition and infringement are different. The process of opposed a registered trademark (which is required to consist of infringement within civilian law system) is separated from a civil lawsuit. (physical law and lawsuit law are separated as well - i.e substantive law separated from procedural law). When an opposition in published trademark is filed (administrative lawsuit, and it needs to be done within 3 months from published), it goes to a proceeding with a period of "cooling-off" time before the formal ruling proceeds. Up till this stage, none of the party is "in court/in trial" yet. But technically it's already in the process of lawsuit procedures. This period of "settlement" should be at minimum 2 months in Euro CTMA. (Can be extended up to 2 years) counting from the day of notification of admissibility. (7/30, so the real proceeding should begin at 9/30 as the earliest possible date). And if and only if that this ruling is over than the appeal by either party can "go into court" ( appeal to higher court).

Now since "civil lawsuit" it's separated. The "civil court" (which is just a court in general with civil lawsuit cases. An infringement can also be applied to criminal lawsuit as well, but I think few trademark cases going for it) can not rule whether a trademark is valid or not (It's up to the professionals in IP court), their function is to determine if the infringement caused for damages and issuing injunctions to stop infringements. It can enforce the outcome when private settlement can not. This is not required and from what I am gathering, I guess this is not really entering a civil lawsuit yet. (I can't find any district court case that matches it, but I don't read Sweden, so I've likely missed it if it did. Thus I'd like to know if someone in Sweden can look it up). But traditionally the preparation of both should happen simultaneously, since you don't want to get an approval of your opposition, but not able to enforce them. (And for getting the damages money quickly) And I don't know what Notch said about Zenimax paid the fee for the court was meant for the previous mentioned IP court proceedings (indeed it should), or also for the "civil court" lawsuit as well [1].

Law and lawsuit processes have evolved into a wildly covered and professional system. And it's certainly not just a simple decision of whether letting the court to solve it or not question anymore. I doubt the man in change of Zenimax who is a lawyer will not know what to do about it. But their decisions may be indeed far off from ideal. People do make mistakes whether it's you, me, lawyers, CEOs, judges, or Notch.

[1] P.S. I can't be sure since both record of fee submissions should not be public. I guess a civil lawsuit preparation probably is taking place, but who knows. Perhaps Bethesda will not want to enforce it, and just want to clear the trademark dispute only, hopefully Notch will comply in the end. However It will be quite foolish to not get prepared if you want to defend your IP rights.

And IP is like property, they can be sold, lent, transfer, etc. If Notch do get the registered "SCROLLS" trademark ruling in the end as he want, there is nothing Bethesda can do if Notch sold it (Selling the IP right, is NOT selling the game, Notch can still be the developer. It's separated). And the agreement between Notch and Zenimax doesn't apply to the new owner. And who knows the next owner will be like Notch. (It may be a big gaming company as well, then it will be a major trouble for Bethesda).

[scriver]

Well, I could look it up, but I don't really know what to look for.

Also, if you don't mind me correcting you, you speak/read Swedish, not Sweden.

[counting]

Well, I could look it up, but I don't really know what to look for.

Also, if you don't mind me correcting you, you speak/read Swedish, not Sweden.

There are 48 district courts in Sweden. For example : Stockholm District Court, and they will announce the following trial/hearings/pretrials/etc, and there should be a way to search the past trials/hearings/etc. (An example of online public info). They will list case number and at what causes. But the parties should be somewhat seals if it's not yet being accepted and made public. I don't know which district court will get the case. (maybe in the district where Mojang is located, but not necessary). Or I don't even know if there is a central database for people to search. (Probably there is one but I don't know it's online or you have to physically check them with permissions.) And not all of the courts make the announcement online. A great possibility is that it has to be searched and looked for in person on site. It will be a hard work and a lot of time to do so.

Perhaps a better way is to just wait, and let some journalists to dig them up in the future.(It's their jobs after all). Since it's very likely that right now this is still in the process of examinations or preparations before formal lawsuit is accepted in courts, or Zenimax not even filed yet. (You pay the fee doesn't mean it has completed the filing process, it can still be withdrawn.)

P.S. And thanks for the grammar checking. There is no such thing as derivation or part of speech within one word in Chinese (each word is a fixed "block"). I can still easily lost what means what in western language even after speaking/reading them for a long time. (Like noun/country Sweden is 瑞典, Swedish 瑞典語, adj Swedish 瑞典的, Swedish (people) 瑞點人, we Chinese just add an additional word behind all of them to form word groups for different usages, we separated them not just meanings but also forming different word groups).

[Grakelin]

I have to say, counting, your approach is weak. Whenever somebody not only disagrees with you but provides a source, you call them a troll.

Your sources do not indicate that an acceptance of Notch's challenge are unlikely, nor do your claims about the thousands of yearly trademark cases which go through without a wild challenge. They do indicate Tim Langdell's case with "Edge", however, where "Mirror's Edge" won as the defendent, a case strikingly similar to this one, if inverted.

Whether or not there is a precedent in the actual legal system for a challenge doesn't actually matter (although it does; only societies which are culturally distant from our own ignore precedent in their legal sysem), because the precedent given is an example of something being settled out of court, which is what happens in the vast majority of all legal cases.

[counting]

I have to say, counting, your approach is weak. Whenever somebody not only disagrees with you but provides a source, you call them a troll.

Your sources do not indicate that an acceptance of Notch's challenge are unlikely, nor do your claims about the thousands of yearly trademark cases which go through without a wild challenge. They do indicate Tim Langdell's case with "Edge", however, where "Mirror's Edge" won as the defendent, a case strikingly similar to this one, if inverted.

Whether or not there is a precedent in the actual legal system for a challenge doesn't actually matter (although it does; only societies which are culturally distant from our own ignore precedent in their legal sysem), because the precedent given is an example of something being settled out of court, which is what happens in the vast majority of all legal cases.

I'd say that it's my fault of loosing patient and spoke harsh judgements. I am kind of tired with superficial talks without any prior knowledge, but only emotional response. (Not using facts/statements, but just "Ha! Ha! I am right, you are wrong!", That I considered a kind of trollish.)

And I don't think I am arguing the valid of particular cases. I do realize the importance of precedents even in civil law system, but it's not how usual IP lawsuit processes in my own experiences at my country and it will not imminently translate into laws. And from I know lawsuits regarding IP rights are very different procedures and very formal. However people do settled under the table in their own ways as they wish, it's not for the legal system to interfere. There is no surprised that people will settle in their own way with different conditions and often in strange ways privately. But the private settlement doesn't affect the proceeding of the legal lawsuit processes in civil law system. It has to follow the lawsuit procedures.

And whether you make such settlement a public event is everybody's choice. Making it a PR event doesn't make it valid or more effective or even a precedent to force everybody to follow. I don't think Notch is really after the settlement in this way, but using this as a leverage. What's your opinion or to your knowledge how IP laws work then? Or you just want to opposed what ever I said? Or you think the way of anarchy without IP laws and registrations is a better solution so everybody just Quake their way out? (I am not being sarcastic, but simply want to know the reasons behind supporting such choice, other than it's cool.)

[Rooster]

Actually some industries manage just fine without copyright protection (they still have trademark protection though):
Fashion
Cars
Furniture


Those are very profitable businesses, but their utilitarian nature prevents them from making harsh copyright a good way to go.

[G-Flex]

What makes you think copyrights don't apply to fashion? There's no particular reason why they shouldn't, even if it doesn't generally need to be enforced. There's also no good reason why a car, or elements of a car, couldn't/wouldn't be patented.

[Rooster]

Patented technology, yes, and I'm basing my knowledge off of one video, but afaik you can't copyright a car's shape, and overall look.
You can't patent the leather used in it, or paint.
So patent yes, copyright no.

[Neonivek]

"Sweden is a civil law system country unbounded by precedents"

Its in Sweden? Well then this has entirely different rules.

I'd have to read on that.