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[antymattar]

I disagree that a non-civil tone would proove ones argument invalid. rather, it would confirm ones disability to engage the latter in mindful wits.

Furthermore, I digress from trying to show you how fun it would be if workshops could be built after my(or you could claim that its already planned) vision. Wouldn't you like to fully customize your workshops in a bedroom-like manner rather than continuously building squares that seem to have no logical meaning? How can a dwarf produce a workshop that seems to have many tools in it from just one peace of material. It doesnt make any logical or practical sense.

Also, workshops in the current state of the game provide no difficulty what so ever. They can all be build from almost any of the accessible items and they are an instant jump-start to any industry, thus making them a bit unfair. They also have no value what so ever. Constructing a personal workshop for your legendary blacksmith out of 10 different parts seems more of an investment that granting him ten personal workshops made of a block of stone.

The real kanundrum is not weather this idea would take much time to do, or how much time it would require to complete(Though that too is important) but rather how much it ads to the game. And I think it ads a lot.

So what do you think now?

Also, on the matter of non-civil tones dismissing ones argument; Note that, and this is just a matter of fact and had nothing to do with what you said, people using fallacies in civil tones are more of a bugger than frustrated people with non civil tones.

TAKE THAT! I POWND U! 

[IT 000]

So what do you think now?

Please read my posts, that's what I think...

Furthermore, I digress from trying to show you how fun it would be if workshops could be built after my(or you could claim that its already planned) vision. Wouldn't you like to fully customize your workshops in a bedroom-like manner rather than continuously building squares that seem to have no logical meaning? How can a dwarf produce a workshop that seems to have many tools in it from just one peace of material. It doesnt make any logical or practical sense.

Your idea of additional misc tools could be implemented into the workshop easily. Simply put every idea you have pitched so far could be implemented into the current workshop system and could be implemented better.

... more easily then reinventing the wheel might I add. And if this is what you agree with, you have added nothing new to the suggestion boards. Search first, check out the eternal suggestion list. It's already up there.

So no, you did not 'pownd' me, you proved that you did not even read my argument, and that you did not search before you posted this suggestion. I typed it, I thought it out, I did my research. Perhaps you should do the same before you post.

[antymattar]

So what do you think now?

Please read my posts, that's what I think...

Furthermore, I digress from trying to show you how fun it would be if workshops could be built after my(or you could claim that its already planned) vision. Wouldn't you like to fully customize your workshops in a bedroom-like manner rather than continuously building squares that seem to have no logical meaning? How can a dwarf produce a workshop that seems to have many tools in it from just one peace of material. It doesnt make any logical or practical sense.

Your idea of additional misc tools could be implemented into the workshop easily. Simply put every idea you have pitched so far could be implemented into the current workshop system and could be implemented better.

... more easily then reinventing the wheel might I add. And if this is what you agree with, you have added nothing new to the suggestion boards. Search first, check out the eternal suggestion list. It's already up there.

So no, you did not 'pownd' me, you proved that you did not even read my argument, and that you did not search before you posted this suggestion. I typed it, I thought it out, I did my research. Perhaps you should do the same before you post.

The pownd text is a joke. Get a humor. 

Anyway, I know they can be implemented, but it is nothing special to "require" a spinwheel for a loom but have no ACTUAL reason to have it. I want the dwarves to actually use them. AND I WANT TO SEE THEM DO IT! I read it. I don't want to have more stuff required for no purpose. I want them all to have a meaning. it needs meaning.

[harborpirate]

The strongest argument for zones is definitely being able to customize workshops.

• Multiple pieces of equipment inside a single shop, like 5 butcher blocks or 3 anvils. Players could maximize production and minimize clutter.
• Resizing a shop at any time, for instance to include more storage or accommodate additional equipment.
• Infinite reorientation of objects inside a shop.
• Equipment requirements for a shop could be moddable. Modders could use this to build more realistic simulations of industry without messing with the ease of starting industries that players are used to in vanilla.
• Shops could have optional equipment.

[drilltooth]

Soo, kinda skimmed over the hate.. the basic idea is something like remove fixed-sized workshops, and replace them with areas designated to an industry, akin to how dwarf labours are sorted.. Reactions would be dependant on the proper equipment being present?
   (you order a sword, Urist masamune looks around for a metalworking area containing an anvil and firepit.)

I suspect that the end result would be much the same, job tools being stored in 3x3 areas.. but it would simplify, and potentially speed tasks

Makes sense.. could also, logically, give rise to an "apprentice" mechanic. (highly skilled dwarfs boost the rate of skill gain of less skilled ones working in the same area, at the cost of their own productivity.)

[antymattar]

Yeah, that too. It would also mean that dwarves would be able to communicate during work, instead of just when they are on break. Also, it means that even if I make a room of the wrong size(I usually have workshop rooms the size of 9x9 but by accident I make a 8x9) I can still fill it with A workshop and let my dwarves use it.

[peskyninja]

It would be nice if the size and the number of items on the workshop influence the productivity and the number of workers.
 if this is implemented in the game we can create The Great Steel Works.

[antymattar]

that is the idea! The more tools the more dwarves can use them.

[Uristocrat]

Another big advantage from all of this is that you can easily change the orientation of your workshops. Jewelers' and Bowyers' shops are a real pain at the moment.

This is why I put all workshops in 5x5 rooms with stockpiles around the edges.  That said, I do like the idea that we could make workshops by having rooms with the appropriate items in them.  Or maybe we could just require more sensible things, like tables and chairs and such in building normal workshops.

Of course, that leads to more bootstrapping problems.  We already have the "you need and anvil to make an anvil" problem, not sure it's a great idea to expand that to tables, etc.

[Iapetus]

How can a dwarf produce a workshop that seems to have many tools in it from just one peace of material. It doesnt make any logical or practical sense.

A quick-fix for that, without completely overhauling the current system, would be to require more items for making the workshop, and for the dwarf to require tools to use it.

E.g. a butchery would require a table (instead or as well as the stone/block), and a butcher would require a meat cleaver or such like.

Or a forge would require an anvil, a bellows, a furnace (possibly just a rock/block to represent that), and a bucket for quenching, and the smith would require a hammer.

Also, workshops in the current state of the game provide no difficulty what so ever. They can all be build from almost any of the accessible items and they are an instant jump-start to any industry, thus making them a bit unfair.

I don't see how it is "unfair" that you can easily build a workshop.  If you want a bit more work, the "extra components" described above would do that.  But I don't see the point in introducing "fake difficulty" just to make it harder to start an industry.


Over all, I'm not really sure how much benefit this idea would have.  The only obvious ones I can think of are:
a) It could make micromanaging worker skill levels easier. 
Because at the moment, if you have several forges set for low-skilled smiths, and several set for high-skilled smiths, then it can be a bind assigning jobs to each forge separately.  Whereas with this system, you could have one workshop area with six forges, set that to low-skilled dwarves, and set the whole area on "copper caps, repeat".  And then set up a separate master smithy with three anvils, set to high-level skill, and assign all your steel and gold jobs to that one.

b) If dwarves need to use tools in their work, it will make storing the tools easier.

[antymattar]

Yes, you have a good poin there.

But still, it would have much more roleplay benefit than practical.

[Silverionmox]

Another big advantage from all of this is that you can easily change the orientation of your workshops. Jewelers' and Bowyers' shops are a real pain at the moment.

This is why I put all workshops in 5x5 rooms with stockpiles around the edges.  That said, I do like the idea that we could make workshops by having rooms with the appropriate items in them.  Or maybe we could just require more sensible things, like tables and chairs and such in building normal workshops.

Of course, that leads to more bootstrapping problems.  We already have the "you need and anvil to make an anvil" problem, not sure it's a great idea to expand that to tables, etc.

Bootstrapping is not necessarily a problem. There should be only a few essential pieces of furniture for most jobs: everything else just improves speed, quality, storage space, comfort or gives access to some high-end items. What items do what is of course to be coded in the raws.

Not that I would mind a bit more of a production chain: you can build every workshop in the first year if you wish, it wouldn't hurt that some workshops would depend on some finished products. It would mostly increase the importance of the forge, and that's appropriate.

[Silverionmox]

A quick-fix for that, without completely overhauling the current system, would be to require more items for making the workshop, and for the dwarf to require tools to use it.

E.g. a butchery would require a table (instead or as well as the stone/block), and a butcher would require a meat cleaver or such like.

Or a forge would require an anvil, a bellows, a furnace (possibly just a rock/block to represent that), and a bucket for quenching, and the smith would require a hammer.

That still wouldn't give the benefit of flexibility: custom workshop layout, custom workshop capabilities, nor the ability to upgrade workshops step by step as your resources permit or your needs dictate.

I don't see how it is "unfair" that you can easily build a workshop.  If you want a bit more work, the "extra components" described above would do that.  But I don't see the point in introducing "fake difficulty" just to make it harder to start an industry.

If this is too difficult, go watch tv. It's just a rhetoric device to denounce something you don't like as fake difficulty. One can't expect that, in a game where memory is spent on tracking the amount of vomit on the little toes of each creature, workshops are built from just one block, in just one available lay-out. It would fit better with the way bedrooms are made as well (and those are much more uniform than workshops ever will be). I'm glad you still recognize a few advantages though.

[drilltooth]

Sure, adding components/tools would create some needless difficulty.  but so does having to chop wood for charcoal to smelt ore to make the bars you forge into metal goods...

of course, how it handles Strange Moods would be one stumbling block. if they took over your main workhouse...

[Silverionmox]

Sure, adding components/tools would create some needless difficulty.  but so does having to chop wood for charcoal to smelt ore to make the bars you forge into metal goods...

of course, how it handles Strange Moods would be one stumbling block. if they took over your main workhouse...

It would actually be less of a problem, since multiple dwarves working side by side would become a possibility. They'll just nudge anyone out of the way if the only anvil happens to be occupied when they need it