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Poll

What level of military power should the US aim for?

World Police, we can take on the world, we could win a land war in Asia, god damn it!
- 24 (20.9%)
Matched Force, enough power to take on any other nation one on one and win
- 34 (29.6%)
Force Projection, enough to have influence around the world, but no real capability for a full on war in a foreign nation
- 10 (8.7%)
Fulfilling Treaty Obligations, no more
- 22 (19.1%)
Homeland Defense, no more
- 16 (13.9%)
Nuclear Deterrent is enough
- 4 (3.5%)
We need no military power at all
- 5 (4.3%)

Total Members Voted: 115


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Author Topic: The Military - Does the US actually need one?  (Read 12443 times)

GlyphGryph

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #60 on: August 05, 2011, 05:07:14 pm »

Quote
On the flip side, crazy shit happens all over the world every day, some of which we do need to respond to.
Like?


Anyways, upon request, poll added. Strife, you understand best what I'm going for here, so if you have suggested tweaks in wording, it would be appreciated.
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nenjin

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #61 on: August 05, 2011, 05:15:29 pm »

Syria, Libya, take your pick. Bosnia/Serbia. Go back further and you get more reasons. Our foreign policy has never been "it ain't our problem." Until that changes we have a stated obligation to support people who are being oppressed or to stand against those who threaten the livelihood of sovereign, democratic nations.

The world would be a significantly different place today had America not been there to check everyone's ambitions. I don't think it would necessarily be a nicer or more stable place. I don't like war but I admit its necessity for something other than personal defense.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
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Bauglir

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2011, 05:19:50 pm »

I'd prefer homeland defense only, but I understand that practicality necessitates upholding agreements we've already made, and I'd also like to clarify that I'm aware that the line between foreign intervention and proactive defense (as hilariously contradictory as that phrase might sound) gets pretty murky; I'd be willing to err on the side of having a little larger a military than pure defense would suggest as a necessity, but I think the current situation is a little obnoxious. And, obviously, any transition should be accompanied by plans to move the jobs lost thereby into other government-funded areas, but that can get really tricky and further skews my opinion away from what I think would be ideal toward the status quo.
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At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

GlyphGryph

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #63 on: August 05, 2011, 05:23:05 pm »

None of that is stuff that we needed to respond to. It is stuff we have have benefited from responding to, but what I'm trying to get from people here is an argument that goes a bit deeper into cost effectiveness than that.

Say we didn't do any of those things. Say we spent the same budget and manpower, over those years, instead working on cures for diseases and fighting disease in third world countries. THAT is the sort of world you need to compare it against, not a world where we did nothing, but a world were the money was spent in another way towards other potential benefits.

And, as I mentioned in the OP, this is something that would entail a gradual transition, and we're ignoring the whole lack of political will to do so thing (talking about what should be, not what is. And there is potential for the US to change its views here over time, its done it before)
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2011, 05:24:30 pm »

Honestly, even if we cut a lot of money from military spending, the US armed forces would probably stay at World Police. I get the feeling that the military has become very inefficient because of their overfunding. All sorts of projects that never pan out get started and cost billions, because the military can in fact pay for it. If the higher-ups in the military had to make due with less instead of being given excess, they'd probably be much better at it.
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Gunner-Chan

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #65 on: August 05, 2011, 05:26:06 pm »

I don't have much to add since while I'm a militarist, I detest the military of the United States on moral grounds. Mostly after hearing about Smedly Butler.

His somewhat short but very insightful look at the nature of war from the inside is very interesting.
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nenjin

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #66 on: August 05, 2011, 05:29:24 pm »

My take is if we shoot for force projection but leave the option for matched forces, we can always re-mobilize our military and our economy to meet demand. The further away we get from matched forces, the harsher the sacrifices the public has to make to meet demand when it exceeds our military capacity. Conscription, sudden, drastic cuts in domestic spending. Standing from a baseline of being able to project forces, but not having an economy poised to invade the shit out of anyone at any moment, sounds like a better use of resources in the moment.

Quote
None of that is stuff that we needed to respond to. It is stuff we have have benefited from responding to, but what I'm trying to get from people here is an argument that goes a bit deeper into cost effectiveness than that.

What about the benefits we can't easily calculate? The value to those we helped that someone out there gives a shit about their predicament? The value of the most powerful free society upholding the values of a free society as a world goal? I think people often overlook what the world could have looked like if its top super power hadn't made its stated goal democracy and freedom for all, and held it up at least half of the time. We can't address all atrocities around the world, but continuing to address some of them at least is a worthy political goal that requires military power of some sort.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 05:32:05 pm by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
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Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
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How will I cheese now assholes?
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Taniec

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #67 on: August 05, 2011, 05:31:35 pm »

1964 Colombian Armed Conflict 
1967 Naxalite-Maoist insurgency
1978 Afghan civil war 
1991 Somali Civil War 

2003 War in Iraq 
2004 War in North-West Pakistan 
2004 Shi’ite Insurgency in Yemen 
2006 Mexican Drug War 
2009 Sudanese nomadic conflicts 
2011 Libyan civil war 
2011 South Kordofan conflict

1948 Korean Conflict 
1948 Internal conflict in Burma 
1948 Israeli–Palestinian
1964 Insurgency in Northeast India
1969 Insurgency in the Philippines
1978 Turkey–Kurdistan Workers' Party conflict
1987 Lord's Resistance Army insurgency 
1989 Insurgency in Jammu and Kashmir 
2002 Insurgency in the Maghreb 
2004 Conflict in the Niger Delta 
2004 Balochistan conflict 
2004 South Thailand insurgency
2008 Cambodian–Thai border stand-off 
2009 Insurgency in the North Caucasus
2009 South Yemen insurgency 
2010 Yemeni al-Qaeda crackdown

Having a military comes out of need, not out of want. You may want a less power and less influential U.S. military and hell I don't blame a lot of people for wanted the good ole' U S of A to leave our noses out of business we don't belong in, but because the U.S. has the wonderful reputation of trying to help (god forbid...even though I'm not stupid enough to know that they help for gain and not just 'cuz, but you don't think other countries are any different?) they want us to implode. I'm all for reducing foreign aid because no one appreciates it. I'm all for reducing military spending for setting up foreign bases. But cutting spending for the sake of making us weaker and less protective? Plain idiotic.

I am sick and fucking tired of hearing about everything the U.S. does wrong. Go move and leave the country then. Leave our garbage pit of a country. I'm not some loonie patriot, but have some faith. Despite corrupt politicians, despite idiotic policies it's the majority of people who give the country it's own power. The little, average guys who work their asses off to better themseleves. This isn't directed at anyone specific, but the general attitude of people nowadays is sickening. It's like people WANT the U.S. to go the way of the Roman empire. Congrats on their pessimism.
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Ninteen45

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #68 on: August 05, 2011, 05:36:28 pm »

MURICA! Fuck yeah!
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GlyphGryph

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #69 on: August 05, 2011, 05:36:47 pm »

Quote
I'm all for reducing foreign aid because no one appreciates it. I'm all for reducing military spending for setting up foreign bases. But cutting spending for the sake of making us weaker and less protective? Plain idiotic.
Utter bullshit. Every number and study I've seen says dollars spent on foreign aid give us vastly more influence per dollar than the equivalent amount spent on military power.

And none of those conflicts vaguely approach anything coming close to a need - all of them were "wants", because we saw some benefit. Is it really so hard for you to consider the possibility the benefits gained from those wars may not have been worth the cost?

(Maybe they were, but your sure doing a piss poor job of arguing since you, you know, haven't even tried)
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nenjin

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #70 on: August 05, 2011, 05:37:27 pm »

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Having a military comes out of need, not out of want.

This is really the only part I disagree with you on. (Well that and the whole "git out of the country.)

There are some in the political, business and military spheres who are so far removed from life as most people know it, that what they consider a need we wouldn't even know how to describe it. During the Kennedy Administration, the military wanted the authority to drop nukes not just on Cuba, but Laos and Vietnam as well. Clearly, none of that was a "need", because we're still here, they're still here and the world didn't see a single nuke fired in anger as a result. It's probably slightly more sanely than it was then when it was Communism vs. Us.

Having a military starts out coming from a need, but beyond that it's entirely relative to wants. And the wants of those that make the decisions and earn the money are far, far removed from the everyday lives of those they represent.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #71 on: August 05, 2011, 05:38:45 pm »

This isn't about reducing the military's power, at least not for me. In my eyes, the military is extremely bloated and inefficient in terms of funding that could be much better spent elsewhere without harming, or perhaps even improving, the military's power.
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nenjin

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #72 on: August 05, 2011, 05:39:24 pm »

It's already been "steamlined" once under Rumsfeld.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Ninteen45

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #73 on: August 05, 2011, 05:55:39 pm »

The military itself needs a large budget. It can be split up rather easily into supplies, research, training & education and legal issues.

And that's still with bunching food rations with Jet engines and bootcamp with Flight simulator machines.
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Taniec

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #74 on: August 05, 2011, 06:03:58 pm »

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Having a military comes out of need, not out of want.

This is really the only part I disagree with you on. (Well that and the whole "git out of the country.)

There are some in the political, business and military spheres who are so far removed from life as most people know it, that what they consider a need we wouldn't even know how to describe it. During the Kennedy Administration, the military wanted the authority to drop nukes not just on Cuba, but Laos and Vietnam as well. Clearly, none of that was a "need", because we're still here, they're still here and the world didn't see a single nuke fired in anger as a result. It's probably slightly more sanely than it was then when it was Communism vs. Us.

Having a military starts out coming from a need, but beyond that it's entirely relative to wants. And the wants of those that make the decisions and earn the money are far, far removed from the everyday lives of those they represent.

This is a pretty loose analogy, but I'll use it anyway. I know this is pretty far off, but oh well.

Imagine playing a 4X game and you want to be the most "powerful" nation by concentrating on research efforts. You want to be the most technological advanced society first and everything else is a second priority. Do you completely avoid miltary spending and production? If you do you invite some sort of invading force by those who want to steal your technology and raid your resources. If you wait until war declaration to start production you still lose because of limited opportunity costs. The war might become a losing effort before you get a chance to fight back. You can not honestly bank on any optimism that no one will attack you out of good nature if you are peaceful with everyone. There is always that "one group" who will try to take advantage of you.

As a deterrent, you would hopefully build up a military force to compete with the rest of the nations in the game or what have you. However, two nations with similar military power will fight out very long and bloody war which would probably lead to a stalemate everything being equal. To prevent long stalemates and to reduce the amount of casualties in a conflict you ideally would want to create an efficiently powerful military force to deal with conlicts and wars swiftly with minimal losses. You build up military because even if there is not an OVERT need for one right away or in the near future, it still has to exist to prevent anyone to want to mess with what you want to protect. Does the technological society WANT to build a super force to take over the world if their primary objective is to lead in reserach? No. But in essence, they must in order to prevent themseleves from being taken advantage of.

But life isn't a video game. When wants start developing over needs that is where the government and the people should speak about misuse of military funding and actions. Do I like the fact the U.S. has a base in nearly half the countires (just a guess, don't know the real number)? No, and I would probably like it even less if I was on the other side of the stick. Just because a majority of the conflicts I listed previosuly have nothing to do with the U.S whatsoever doesn't mean that a military shouldn't exist. One day the U.S. will be involved in another major war (yay...) and it's better to be prepared as one of the strongest than just the average. I can say that to any western or eastern country as well. The stronger you are, the better deterrent you have.

And my "get out of country" spiel is moreso my own frustration in regards to people who always criticize over and over what's wrong. Sure, there is plenty wrong with what the U.S. is and how they conduct any foreign policy. So as a nation I think it would be more beneficial to figure out a reasonable policy instead of just saying "let's make us weaker so people like us better and stop annying us." When you deal with trillions of dollars in any business or indusrty there will be some sort of innefficiency. If someone can find a way to cut military spending by 10% and still maintain the current military while at the same time being a leader in technological innovation then please give that man or woman a medal. What I got from the OP is that we should limit spending to make us weaker because we don't have to be "that stong" which I whole-heartily disagree with. The U.S should be as strong as they can be just like any other nation in the world.
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