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[Parsely]

If magic is consistent and sensible and 'just one of the guys' then it isn't special anymore and you are basically just doing science and engineering with a few quirks to make things more interesting.

...

But magic's biggest feature is that it is unfamiliar. Bringing rhyme or reason to it can add an interesting element of discovery to it, but usually end up with a line similar to "so it wasn't really magic at all?"...

I respectfully disagree. There are in general, two broad types of magic. There is faerie tale magic, like in lord of the rings, where there doesn't seem to be any rules to follow. Done well, this can add wonderful flavor and mystique to the game or story. Done badly, it's just deus ex machina. This is the type you seem to favor.  The other type is rule based magic, which yes, is a lot like physics, but it doesn't have to be hard and fast; there can be exceptions to every rule, and just because there are rules, doesn't mean they have to make any sort of sense. And personally, for games I think faerie tale magic tends to end up being pretty bland: You learned how to do this! Right click to cast the spell! Press button, receive magic. Obviously there are exceptions, but by and large... Whereas with rule based magic in the game I described, you get to understand the basic principles, and build each spell from there. Then, to make more interesting there are the exceptions to the rules. You go to cast a spell and it explodes in your face, not because you did something wrong, but because it was tuesday, or something else (silly example. Deal with it). Then, you can modify it appropriately, and then find a way to take advantage of the exception or whatever else. I mentioned in my original comment that the spells would be saved, but I think I want to retract that. Instead you'd have to get good not only at making good spells, but also at making simple spells that are quick, for tight situations, which would bring skill into the equation.

I agree with silverskull, that sounds p radical.

[scrdest]

I agree on the rules magic being more interesting - arbitrary magic is either essentially 'this character uses cheats IRL' or it's Standard Fantasy Magic (TM)(C).

Rules magic does not even need to be based in... let's say, Fantasy Physics, you can have magic whose rules are dependent on symbolism - and in fact, that's arguably the oldest kind humans thought of.

Rules magic only needs two characteristics:
a) Consistency - a rule's a rule, unless you have a deeper level rule that governs both the rules and the exceptions;
b) Manipulability (is that a word?) - so if you understand the principle, you may use it for other purposes. For example, if you understand why Fireball works, you may create an Iceball spell by applying the mechanics of air heat manipulation to chill instead of heat.

[Yolan]

A Star Trek game where you can work on a ship, and work your way up to captain over the course of many hours (a proper bloody RPG/Sim length). You're able to walk around the entire ship, be selected for away missions, take shore leave, have relationships etc.

And no, definitely NOT the combat heavy, PvP focused, RP neglecting, STO...

Yes.

[LordBaal]

What about low level spells and such being bound by rules, but as you go up (really up) you can become so powerful that you can start to bend some rules and eventually break them (by when you are reaching the end of the ascension ladder).

This would work a lot if yo start as a good guy and then get corrupted by the power and become a bad one.

[silverskull39]

That would be interesting, though id be more partial to there just being deeper rules, or a whole different set of rules like the difference between relativity and quantum physics.

Another cool ability would be to modify opponents spells as they build them, adding undesirable effects or causing it to fail. this would be especially interesting with multiplayer.

[Sergarr]

That would be interesting, though id be more partial to there just being deeper rules, or a whole different set of rules like the difference between relativity and quantum physics.

Another cool ability would be to modify opponents spells as they build them, adding undesirable effects or causing it to fail. this would be especially interesting with multiplayer.

Blue color in MTG.

Anyway, you cannot have magic changing physics if the game isn't physics-based, and most of them aren't (except for DF).

[silverskull39]

That would be interesting, though id be more partial to there just being deeper rules, or a whole different set of rules like the difference between relativity and quantum physics.

Another cool ability would be to modify opponents spells as they build them, adding undesirable effects or causing it to fail. this would be especially interesting with multiplayer.

Blue color in MTG.

Anyway, you cannot have magic changing physics if the game isn't physics-based, and most of them aren't (except for DF).

I dont play mtg, so could you elaborate?

Re:physics, I think you misunderstood or i didnt state it clearly. quantum physics describes how things work on small scales (subatomic) and relativity describes how things work on large scales. in the same manner, I think it would be interesting if a different set of rules governed magic at different power levels. Which is entirely different from altering physics.

[Sergarr]

That would be interesting, though id be more partial to there just being deeper rules, or a whole different set of rules like the difference between relativity and quantum physics.

Another cool ability would be to modify opponents spells as they build them, adding undesirable effects or causing it to fail. this would be especially interesting with multiplayer.

Blue color in MTG.

Anyway, you cannot have magic changing physics if the game isn't physics-based, and most of them aren't (except for DF).

I dont play mtg, so could you elaborate?

Re:physics, I think you misunderstood or i didnt state it clearly. quantum physics describes how things work on small scales (subatomic) and relativity describes how things work on large scales. in the same manner, I think it would be interesting if a different set of rules governed magic at different power levels. Which is entirely different from altering physics.

Blue color specializes on screwing with the opponents spells. Like counterspelling them, or making them higher cost, or nuking the enemy memory so that he cannot cast anything... It's ofter called the strongest color because of how it can make your opponent utterly powerless.

Also relativity does not describe the things on large scales. It describes the things with high velocities. Large scales are described by classical physics.

And anyway, there would be a problem of transitioning one set of rules gradually into another as the power level shift. FYI this is one of reasons why the relativity and quantum mechanics hasn't yet been combined into one theory. It's not easy.

[LordBaal]

Other way to see it is that as you progress in your "magicship", you set free from one set of rules only to fall over higher, wider ones, until you are bound by a single rule or even no rule.

For example a low level wizard can't make fire appear, nor can increase it's size instantly or be invulnerable to it and so on... it can only manipulate it, like taking a flame from a candle and lighting other candles.

As you go own those restrictions are lifted but news ones are found, like that for example you can't do anything of fire magic under the rain, or that you can't mix magic types (like "fire" and "death" magic to make those awesome flame zombies you want).

Finally you have only one rule, like, not blowing up the planet or whatever. I really not a fan of magic in games actually.

[silverskull39]

That would be interesting, though id be more partial to there just being deeper rules, or a whole different set of rules like the difference between relativity and quantum physics.

Another cool ability would be to modify opponents spells as they build them, adding undesirable effects or causing it to fail. this would be especially interesting with multiplayer.

Blue color in MTG.

Anyway, you cannot have magic changing physics if the game isn't physics-based, and most of them aren't (except for DF).

I dont play mtg, so could you elaborate?

Re:physics, I think you misunderstood or i didnt state it clearly. quantum physics describes how things work on small scales (subatomic) and relativity describes how things work on large scales. in the same manner, I think it would be interesting if a different set of rules governed magic at different power levels. Which is entirely different from altering physics.

Blue color specializes on screwing with the opponents spells. Like counterspelling them, or making them higher cost, or nuking the enemy memory so that he cannot cast anything... It's ofter called the strongest color because of how it can make your opponent utterly powerless.

Also relativity does not describe the things on large scales. It describes the things with high velocities. Large scales are described by classical physics.

And anyway, there would be a problem of transitioning one set of rules gradually into another as the power level shift. FYI this is one of reasons why the relativity and quantum mechanics hasn't yet been combined into one theory. It's not easy.

Relativity is also with large masses (time dilation due to gravity, etc) which is why I used scale instead of velocity, thought its not technically correct, but thats neither here nor there.

Transitioning could be tricky if done gradually, but hey its magic. it doesnt have to be gradual. power level over 9000? bam, youre in the next level of rules. but that wouldnt be character level, it would be essentially the mana input into any particular spell. Alternatively, there could be different branches of magic with different rule sets (restoration vs destruction vs... etc.). 

[TheDarkStar]

You could do it like it happens in physics - normal rules are usually good enough for approximations, but at extremes they become less valid while the more complicated and accurate rules still work.

[KingofstarrySkies]

I'd like...A first-person Jack-The-Ripper game. With you as The Ripper.

[scrdest]

I'd like...A first-person Jack-The-Ripper game. With you as The Ripper.

* scrdest backs away slowly.

[Aedel]

A WH40K game with you as the imperial guardsman. Or as the commissar. Dying is fun, after all.

[KingofstarrySkies]

A WH40K game with you as the imperial guardsman. Or as the commissar. Dying is fun, after all.

Star Wars Battlefront.

As motherfucking Guardsmen.

OH GOD.

I'd like...A first-person Jack-The-Ripper game. With you as The Ripper.

* scrdest backs away slowly.

Something wrong with my desire to surgically strike prostitutes?