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Author Topic: Dota 2  (Read 240039 times)

Kagus

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #2805 on: June 11, 2013, 12:15:05 pm »

As said previously a suport usually dreams of upgraded boots and maybe a magnificent bracer unless the game is already won.
http://imgur.com/a/pdf8b#154

Reminded me of that picture.


Also, Necro minions spawned by Void can move through Chronosphere without getting stopped.  However, if your Void builds a Necro...


And the Archer aura is pretty, well...  Shit.  At max level it's 9 attack speed bonus, 9% movespeed bonus.  That's just barely above the passive on Drums, and far less than the active Drums.  And for the cost of a level 3 necro, you could build a whole drumset.

ranter

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #2806 on: June 11, 2013, 03:45:03 pm »

IMO necro is only usefull with push strats where you need to improve pushing power at "all" costs, it is decent with beastmaster and lycan, both heroes are not in the meta nowadays so necro is basically out too. As said previously a suport usually dreams of upgraded boots and maybe a magnificent bracer unless the game is already won.
I consider necro as the item you go for
A) Pushing
B) Adding DPS when you aren't going to build damage and attack speed
C) Invis detection

I insist that it is the best DPS item on anything that doesn't has any kind of damage multiplier (That includes AS. So agi supports go in). It comes with a 300 mana burn (with the corresponding nuke), invis detection, ~200 DPS if the summons can whack an enemy constantly. And they can't even kill the warrior due to the risk of being Laguna'd. And the archer aura stackable with other ms/as auras like drums, and there's where it starts to become reaaaaaally useful.

Also, remember that no one here is a pro player, so there are many guys that are unfavored by the metagame but still viable in pubs. And BM is even in the metagame thanks to the anti-naix BKB-piercing ult, the anti-naix BKB-piercing slow, and that MOTHERFUCKING EAGLE giving free vision over anything, specially Roshan. With the added fact that the metagame is now broken thanks to 6.78 and people are whacking it to find what's working the best (Special kudos to Goblak, who has already tried things like undying-pugna only to see how a few seconds of invencibility on tombstone work).
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Alkhemia

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #2807 on: June 11, 2013, 04:08:08 pm »


Again most carries are going to buy a helm of the dominator and they can just use it on one of the creeps boom all that money spent wasted and now the other team has the creep.
I would go for dom on a support just to shut it down if I see it which is pretty rare.
now if the other team too dumb to grab the creep with the helm then w/e it pretty good then. That pretty much the main reason you never see it in pro play at all anymore.
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Kagus

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #2808 on: June 11, 2013, 04:19:58 pm »

Was the tombstone banishment a recent change?  I thought that'd been around for a while...

Was in a co-op game recently with a guy trying BM for the first time.  After a few deaths he said "I'm just going to AFK from now on...  Not long I can do much else with this piece of shit hero".

Now, I'm certainly not a good Beastmaster; my micro skills are just about put to the test on Skeleton King.  But even I can realize that Beast has some very nice gifts to grant upon his team, not the least of which is his amazing superward/'Naix on a Plane' delivery system.  That ult is just fabulous, and his axes are a basically powershot that doesn't require channeling and doesn't decrease in power just because it annihilated the creep wave before lopping the head off a fleeing enemy.  I managed to convince him to push on and to give BM a few second chances before putting him to rest for good...  Hell, I once managed a co-op as Visage and maintaned a positive KDA, and I've already mentioned my micromanagement skillz (or lack thereof...  Touchpad doesn't help).



Personally, I think Necro is actually a really good item...  Or at least it would be if it cost a fraction of its price.  But it doesn't.  Necro 3 is 5200 gold total.  That's 100 gold less than a Refresher, and all the annihilation that can provide.  150 less than Assault Cuirass.  It's more than Vladmir's Offering and Mekansm COMBINED.

You're talking nukes (by the way, max burn on Archer is 225, not 300.  Anybody know if that does pure or just magical?), Dagon 2 is less expensive by over 1000 gold, does over twice the damage and has a shorter cooldown. 

Invis detection?  Yeh, because 200gp Sentries or 180gp Dust is for people who don't know any better (I will admit though, it is nice to have as kind of a sideline thing, when you aren't expecting an invisible dude to show up but want the creep anyways).

DPS?  Sure, they can deal some damage if you let them...  But thing is, people aren't going to let them.  They're pathetically squishy for when you get them on the field, they're not your main hero and as such will probably not be managed as well, and they have a bizarre tendency to get stuck on things as a result.

The aura is only nice because it stacks, just about every aura it does stack with is superior in some way.  However, those other auras are passive auras that are constantly active (except for Drums, the passive for which is actually inferior to upgraded Necro aura.  The active by itself is superior to all levels), whereas Necro aura is only available for a maximum of 45 seconds on an 80 second cooldown.  Pick your battles, apparently...


Plus, these dudes have a 100 gold bounty...  That's the same as Warlock's supertank golem.  Just on 400/600/800 health and 6/8/10 armor.  Now, those values would actually be pretty impressive early game...  But you can't get the impressive values early enough because of how prohibitively expensive it is.


I'd probably build Necro more if I thought I could handle another activatable item and could micro the minions...  But just as it is, I think it's a perfectly decent, reasonable item that's ridiculously overpriced for its effect.  A bit like Radiance, in that sense.

Interesting point of note:  Minions have the same vision at night as during the day, being 1300/1400/1500.


EDIT:  Completely unrelated note, but as of this edit there is one hour left of the amazing Humble Bundle 8.  Hop to it.

lemon10

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #2809 on: June 12, 2013, 12:12:21 am »

I have to disagree about the invis detection:
It is *really* useful against enemies who have some way to get out of it, or who run away/kill your wards, especially when you are too squishy to carry a gem.
For example slark with a gem, or riki with diffusal blade.


Its pretty much just as good as a gem during teamfights, with the added bonus that it doesn't drop and it keeps working even after you die.

Now, it might not be worth the entire 5000 gold, especially just for the invisibility detection, but it does add quite a bit of damage, as well as a fair amount of side utility (manaburn, invis, aura, pure damage nuke on death).
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ranter

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #2810 on: June 12, 2013, 09:37:30 am »

Personally, I think Necro is actually a really good item...  Or at least it would be if it cost a fraction of its price.  But it doesn't.  Necro 3 is 5200 gold total.  That's 100 gold less than a Refresher, and all the annihilation that can provide.  150 less than Assault Cuirass.  It's more than Vladmir's Offering and Mekansm COMBINED.

You're talking nukes (by the way, max burn on Archer is 225, not 300.  Anybody know if that does pure or just magical?), Dagon 2 is less expensive by over 1000 gold, does over twice the damage and has a shorter cooldown. 

Invis detection?  Yeh, because 200gp Sentries or 180gp Dust is for people who don't know any better (I will admit though, it is nice to have as kind of a sideline thing, when you aren't expecting an invisible dude to show up but want the creep anyways).

DPS?  Sure, they can deal some damage if you let them...  But thing is, people aren't going to let them.  They're pathetically squishy for when you get them on the field, they're not your main hero and as such will probably not be managed as well, and they have a bizarre tendency to get stuck on things as a result.

The aura is only nice because it stacks, just about every aura it does stack with is superior in some way.  However, those other auras are passive auras that are constantly active (except for Drums, the passive for which is actually inferior to upgraded Necro aura.  The active by itself is superior to all levels), whereas Necro aura is only available for a maximum of 45 seconds on an 80 second cooldown.  Pick your battles, apparently...


Plus, these dudes have a 100 gold bounty...  That's the same as Warlock's supertank golem.  Just on 400/600/800 health and 6/8/10 armor.  Now, those values would actually be pretty impressive early game...  But you can't get the impressive values early enough because of how prohibitively expensive it is.
You are underestimating the DPS of the guys and the chaos that is a teamfight. After tide has blinked in and ravaged, most people do not look too much at anything that doesn't have a big red bar above it until they drop their HP pretty low. And try to kill the big guy (Who brings most of the damage and mana burn. The archer is only for MS and the nuke. Which can be cast about two times in a single summon.). Bam, 600 pure damage on your face. It can be countered with helm and midas? Yeah, but that means that midas must be on CD for it to kill the summon, which means that whoever got it cannot use it to his full potential. And there aren't that many guys who get helm due to already having another Orb more effective on him (I can think of DK, luna, gyro and drow as guys who get it ALWAYS.).

You know what? Just go try and stand against necrodudes while being a support of level ~13. No naked boots shit, but one or two items like aghs+force staff. Now come back and tell me if it doesn't hurts.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 09:40:04 am by ranter »
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Kagus

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #2811 on: June 12, 2013, 10:05:01 am »

Well, the archer does 120 damage while the warrior deals 75 plus 75 manaburn, 60% of which is converted to damage.


The thing about Necro is that the cost is what's prohibitive.  I just tried it out in a bot game as Nature's Prophet, otherwise know as Spruce Blingsteen or Nature's Profit, because he's capable of farming up that kind of scratch without being expected to put it towards actual carry items.  Doom might be another candidate because of his moneymunching.  Otherwise, you're in a position of asking yourself a question...  "Am I the primary attack DPS source for my team?".  If yes, you should be building carry items.  If no, you're probably a support and should be building supporty items.


I'm going to keep building it with NP for a while though, see if I can impress my self with it.  Potentially try it out as Doom if I feel there's nothing better I could be building.  One thing that is funny is that the bots certainly don't know about Last Will.  Managed to get a kill in on Juggerbot thanks to that.

Thexor

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #2812 on: June 12, 2013, 11:53:39 am »

Don't forget that the warrior has a BAT of 0.75, while the archer has a BAT of 1.0. And that's before the +9% aura from the archer. (Plus, you usually have other aura/buff effects when rushing necro units.)

The warrior may only deal 75 + 45 = 120 damage per hit, but he attacks more than twice as fast as an un-upgraded hero would (standard BAT for heroes is 1.7). And that also helps him burn a lot of mana in the process.
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umiman

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #2813 on: June 12, 2013, 01:37:46 pm »

The minions do more than 300dps. Not including the Archer's mana burn active.

That's basically an extra hero. Necrobook is one of the best items in the game. However, just like many other items it's situational.

Alkhemia

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #2814 on: June 13, 2013, 11:07:22 am »

New patch with a lot of bug fixes and Quick Cast w/e that is
Quote
CHANGELOG

VISUALS
- Updated Puck's face
- Updated Brewmaster's face


GAMEPLAY
- Axe: Fixed Berserker's Call bonus armor being dispellable
- Batrider: Fixed Flamebreak being a constant 300 knockback distance instead of a variable amount (10->400) based on the distance from the center of the blast
- Beastmaster: Fixed Turn Rate on Beastmaster's Hawk and Boar being slightly too low
- Bloodseeker: Fixed Bloodrage cast range (600->800)
- Brewmaster: Fixed Earth Primal Split Boulder manacost
- Chaos Knight: Fixed Reality Rift bonus damage sometimes proccing multiple times if you attack more than once in 1.2 seconds
- Drow: Fixed a rare bug with Trueshot Aura that could cause it to not give bonus damage
- Elder Titan: Fixed Ancestral Spirit legacy keys not working
- Jakiro: Fixed Liquid Fire damage interval happening every 1 second instead of every 0.5 seconds
- Juggernaut: Fixed some vision issues with Omnislash
- Huskar: Fixed Burning Spears counter logic getting forgotten when purged
- Invoker: Fixed Ice Wall not slowing units like Golems, Familiars, and Primal Split units
- Io: Fixed the initial Relocate not being interrupted if Io was only disable in the cast time but not when the teleportation happened
- Io: Fixed the initial Relocate not getting interrupted by Root debuffs (Ensnare, Overgrowth, etc)
- Io Fixed Relocate not revealing FoW for enemies
- Io: Fixed Relocate not showing the initial visual effect on the ground for enemies (only showed ping)
- Io: Fixed being able to return Tether Relocate with a different set of targeting rules than the initial direction (no longer allowed to return relocate a creep)
- Io: Fixed Overcharge missing a 2 second toggle cooldown
- Lifestealer: Fixed allied cast Infest killing the creeps and healing you
- Lone Druid: Fixed Battle Cry not having an aoe limit (should be 1000)
- Medusa: Fixed Mystic Snake not jumping to magic immune units
- Nature's Prophet: Fixed being able to use Teleporation while rooted
- Nyx Assassin: Fixed Spiked Carapace charge not getting used when hurt by an invulnerable source
- Razor: Fixed Unstable Current not purging off Repel
- Shadow Fiend: Fixed casting subsequent Shadowrazes being too slow
- Slark: Fixed Shadow Dance passive buff icon updating on hero proximity while dead
- Slark: Fixed Pounce sometimes causing an allied Flaming Lasso to end early.
- Spectre: Fixed Spectre Illusions benefiting from the damage reduction portion of Dispersion
- Tidehunter: Fixed Kraken Shell working while Doomed
- Timbersaw: Fixed Timberchain ending prematurely with Stone Gaze, Diffusal Blade, etc
- Treant Protector: Fixed Living Armor being castable on magic immune allies
- Undying: Fixed Zombie units losing HP with Soul Rip

- Fixed Truestrike causing you to be unable to miss against Towers
- Fixed Roshan missing the final 500 hp/10 dmg upgrade later in the game
- Fixed Backswing behavior with Rupture, Viscous Nasal Goo, Fissure, Decay and Earthshock
- Fixed truesight being unable to be applied to sleeping/invulnerable units
- Fixed Filler buildings having no armor
- Fixed Neutral's Frost Armor slow affecting magic immune enemies

UI
- Added Quick Cast option to Game menu: causes all abilities to cast immediately upon keypress, targeting the cursor's current position
- Improved UI feedback and functionality when connection to the DOTA network is lost or has not yet been established.
- Client no longer waits for connection to the DOTA network before allowing access to the UI. Features that do not require this connection are accessible.
- You can now hold control when pinging to send a "caution" ping instead.
- Added Aegis reclaim and Roshan respawn timers to the spectator popups.

AUDIO
- Added Ownage sounds to Storm Spirit, Axe, Nature's Prophet, and Juggernaut Killing Spree announcers.
- Added distant tower destruction sounds.
- Added Mortal Strike sfx.
- Fixed sync on Freezing Field.

COMMUNITY
- Fixed bug allowing reports outside of matches in certain contexts
- Players receive an additional report submission if someone they report subsequently receives a communication ban

PERFORMANCE
- Fixed an intermittent crash on some particle effects like medusa's ultimate

Update 2:

- Quickcast requires alt (autocast) key combination when enabled
- Fixed various bugs with Quickcast
- Fixed a bug with Trueshot vs Buildings
- Fixed Mystic Snake with Magic Immunity
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"Please touch me. Without lying, wherever you want to touch. That is my wish." - Kiyohime (Grand Order)

"Tyranny, violation, genocide. Those are the things that I detest above all else." - Amakusa Shirou Tokisada (Grand Order)

ukulele

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #2815 on: June 13, 2013, 11:31:17 am »

Quickcast is, letme see if i can explain myself, when you press a skill hotkey, that skill is instantly casted where the mouse pointer is, whitout the required extra left click.
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Exerosp

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #2816 on: June 13, 2013, 12:04:49 pm »

New patch with a lot of bug fixes and Quick Cast w/e that is
It's like smartcasting on LoL. It's a way so people can spam their spells more, and Ukulele covered the rest of my sentence.
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umiman

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #2817 on: June 13, 2013, 04:09:33 pm »

It makes playing heroes with orbs insanely easier.

Stworca

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #2818 on: June 14, 2013, 06:01:09 pm »

Single Draft game. Radiant had Riki and Slark picked.

My draft included Slardar. Don't you just love these?

Needless to say, the game included more object insertions than tentacle porn.
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jaxy15

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #2819 on: June 15, 2013, 01:52:23 am »

Single Draft game. Radiant had Riki and Slark picked.

My draft included Slardar. Don't you just love these?

Needless to say, the game included more object insertions than tentacle porn.
Did you feed that cheap piece of crap Slark, repeatedly being stabbed by his shiv?
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