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[Kagus]

Where are you getting this and what is it for?  As in, test client or full client?

[Alkhemia]

Where are you getting this and what is it for?  As in, test client or full client?

It in the test atm it will be in the full tomorrow and the dota dev fourm  http://dev.dota2.com/

[umiman]

What is Skywrath Mage:

Dragonus is quite basically Zeus if Zeus was a single target nuker. His Q is the only spell in the game that actually scales with int. It also has a 2 second cooldown. You can think of it as a fancy orb effect. His W is essentially Rod of Atos and his E amps magic damage and is also an instant 6-second silence. His ult summons lasers from the sky to hit a tiny AOE circle. It does 1200 damage total and that damage will be spread out to any enemy units inside that radius.

Basically, if Dragonus catches you alone, you gonna have a bad time.

His weakness is that he's super squishy and can't farm for crap. Given how many items he needs, the lack of farming ability really hurts him. He also consumes so much mana that he will be forced to visit the fountain to regen every single time he ults.

[Alkhemia]

http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Skywrath_Mage_responses and here is his lines
There is more stuff like the new gem look but i'll wait for Matt blog to be done to post that stuff

[ranter]

I disagree with the way spectre is built. I consider that she should go treads+manta first. Why? Because desolate applies to illusions, meaning that only desolate means 130 pure damage from the manta illusions, whcih is brutal. It also adds agility and MS, which means that your haunt illusions hit harder and more times.

The problem with spectre is desolate. It is a very powerful ability, but it is only effective when the enemies aren't alone (Read as "when is so late game that all the aoe dropped in a teamfigth erradicates the enemy creeps"), and unlike most damage buffs, it isn't paired with an AS buff, like lycan, clinkz or ursa. Even luna has glaives to amplify that damage.

Also, I think that radiance is a bad item overall except for shutting down blink daggers. If you are a right clicker, it means you have a way to amplify your attack damage. The radiance burn damage? Not amplifiable, not even by attack speed, and thus doesn't contribute that much to your DPS.

But what about not right clickers? You have to buy a freaking sacred relic. That's 3800 gold you won't be able to use properly.

[Kagus]

Yeah, it's quite rare that I'll build radiance on anyone.  I can understand that it's nice for, say, getting it up early on Doom and using in conjunction with his Scorched Earth in order to just wear down everyone nearby or beef up farming.  Or possibly with Alchemist, again as a farming mechanism.  The wiki also claims there's something to be said for putting it on Bloodseeker so he can nab a few creep kills during skirmishes and patch himself up via his Bloodbath passive.

But in regards to farming, you could just build a Battlefury instead for 800 less gold, and not only get MORE base damage but also the HP and Mana regen.  And a Battlefury's cleave will scale, while Radiance's burn does not.  Or, heck, build a Maelstrom for 2700 and beef it up into a Mjollnir later for all the benefits that gives.


Maybe you could put Radiance on Visage just to help charge his Soul Assumption?  But again, that requires buying the damned thing.

[umiman]

I'd say there's only one hero where Radiance is more or less core and that's Lone Druid. He becomes quite ridiculous with Radiance, since the bear can split push independantly and chase forever. It's not mandatory by any means but it makes him absurdly strong. He is almost guaranteed to get massive Radiance burn damage too since the bear is so freaking tanky. He also farms it pretty easily.

Edit: That reminds me. I tried to play Lone Druid without his bear recently. The only thing it taught me is that Lone Druid is really useless without his bear.

[Kagus]

Oh yeah, forgot about LD...  Mostly because every time I play him, it turns into such a train wreck that I'm better off forgetting the whole traumatic experience.   And yeah, the bear is kinda the deal breaker.

[Alkhemia]

hmm radiance bear is pretty rare now you mostly see Armlet or Maelstrom.
I like Armlet personally

[Thexor]

Honestly? Recently, most pro Lone Druids have been skipping Radiance, and getting Armlet as their first item. If you didn't know, Armlet on the bear doesn't give the bonus strength, but also doesn't inflict the 40 self DPS, so you can leave it active at all times. It's ridiculously powerful for 2600 gold, compared to 5150 for Radiance. You can get an Armlet and a Hyperstone for less than that, giving you ridiculous attack speed, good damage, and a start into your AC or Mjollnir.

The only reason to get early Radiance over Armlet into a faster top-tier item is for the split-push capabilities. Radiance lets the bear push one lane while you farm somewhere else. But still, especially with the tendency for most pro Druids to play as solo offlaners, farming an early Radiance is a pipe dream compared to the amazing power of a fast Armlet.

[umiman]

Yes, I've noticed that. I think it's kinda silly and I'll explain why.

From what I've seen of comp LD games since armlet bear became a thing, I've noticed a few things.

1. Both LD and his bear don't actually do anything unless something is rooted. Of course, they still destroy towers just as fast but in terms of teamfights and ganks and counter-ganks, they are absolutely useless unless their target is stunned somehow.

2. Armlet bears tend to get 6-slotted while LD himself runs around with just boots.

Regarding #1:

There's a big reason why melee heroes can't outcarry ranged heroes unless they have big AOE abilities such as cleave. It's because the effective amount of autoattack hits for a melee hero is significantly less than ranged. For example, for each hit Sven can pull off, Drow could easily have pulled off two or three. Furthermore, it's impossible to damage things while moving as a melee carry, something ranged heroes can do as well.

Why is this an issue? I say this because this means the stats and bonuses earned from armlet (and basically every dps item) is deceptive on a melee hero. What you see is potential damage. It doesn't account for the hero getting kited or the amount of time spent doing 0 dps because of movement. To further illustrate my point, observe Ursa. He also can't do anything unless he's right next to his target and they can't run away. So even if an Ursa has three hyperstones, he will still do effectively 0 dps if he cannot hit his target. To a less extreme example, even if he has three hyperstones, he will only have approximately 1 attack per second if his target is the same speed as him. Remember, him having to catch up to his enemy means less dps total.

In this case, both LD and his bear have the exact same issue as Ursa does, except the bear has a root. However, unlike Ursa, these guys don't have the ability to make an enemy explode in 1 second so they need their target to be in range for much... much longer. Which is what I meant by they can't do anything unless the target is stunned. So even if Armlet gave 100% attack speed, it will still be limited by how many attacks the bear can get before the target moves out of melee range and the bear has to reposition.

Radiance bear doesn't have this issue. Radiance dps is constant and guaranteed unless the enemy has magic immunity. So all the bear has to do is be somewhat near the enemy and it will proc the full amount of damage regardless. In this case the bear can do the "run next to enemy. Stop to attack. Run next to enemy. Stop to attack" thing while still doing full damage. I personally think this is a massive advantage and what makes or breaks LD. This sentiment will be echoed in the next point.

Regarding #2:

In economics there is a theory called opportunity cost. What it basically means is that there is a hidden cost for all our choices. For example, suppose at this moment I have a choice of whether to write this article or not. If I write it, the opportunity cost of that action is I just spent 1/2 hour not cramming for my life insurance and investments certification exam. Similarly, if I don't write it, the opportunity cost is you guys don't get the pleasure of reading a massive and really boring wall of text.

In terms of Lone Druid, what this means is simple. If you notice, LD games in the past where the bear gets a Radiance fast tend to only have 2 items on the bear, and the rest going on LD himself. This tends to be Radiance + AC / Mjolnir. After that LD starts getting Heart, Shivas, whatever. Recently with the armlet bear, what you see is LD stacking 5 mid-priced items + AC / Mjolnir on the bear instead. So you'll see a bear with something like Armlet, Vlads, Basher, AC etc. and LD just running around with boots. Essentially, the opportunity cost for not getting Radiance is that LD effectively spends more gold in the long run to make a bear just as effective as a Radiance build bear. Those small items all add up and it leaves LD himself relatively vulnerable since he has no items.

Why exactly does this happen? Why does Radiance bear only need two items? This is because as I've mentioned in the first point, Radiance bear can output amazing damage just by being there. It doesn't need a Basher to force enemies to sit still and get shredded. It doesn't need a Vlads to lifesteal and amplify damage while it DPS-es something down. Radiance bear has been known to not even need upgraded boots as the Radiance AOE is so huge. Comparatively, armlet LD has to get a bunch of items to supplement the bear just to reach the level Radiance bear gets by default. What is the benefit of Armlet bear? Simply that the incremental stages are all very appealing as compared to the gigantic steps of 3800g for the Sacred Relic (which on its own is kinda derpy).

Additionally, this also means that when the bear inevitably dies, armlet LD is significantly weaker than Radiance LD since he will have less items on himself.

Why is the armlet build so appealing right now?

As you mentioned. Armlet + Hyperstone is significantly cheaper than a Radiance. Right now a lot of pro teams like more cost effective items that work now as opposed to big items that work "possibly in the future". This means items like Drums, Mek, and Ring of Aquila are all loved more than saving up for big stuff like AC. Generally I agree with this sentiment, which is why I think Radiance on most heroes is kinda dumb.

Furthermore, the increased bonuses from the Armlet build help out in tower pushing quite a lot. After all, towers can't run away so the bear gets the full amount of dps. This is very compelling for push oriented lineups, which is generally why LD is picked.

Lastly, I think people are being seduced by the prospect of the bear not taking the Armlet active damage. Personally I think this is quite a silly sentiment, as I'm not particularly willing to pay 2600g for 40 damage and 25 attack speed, even if it didn't drain my hp constantly. I think if people valued that side of Armlet so much, you'd see Armlet on all the right click heroes in the game. Drow, Luna, and Gyro would all be getting it. Hell, they'd even get the gigantic HP boost and the ability to armlet toggle too, something that the bear doesn't get. But this isn't the case.

Essentially you have conversations like this:

A: "Holy crap! LD's bear doesn't take Armlet damage!"
B: "Wow, that means he gets all the upsides without any of the downsides!"

Except that isn't true. Since he doesn't get the massive strength boost. 25 strength is the same as Reaver or two Vitality Boosters. He also doesn't get the armlet toggle, which is a vital component of making good use of Armlet. Even being conservative, I think forgoing this part removes 50% of the item's effectiveness. That's the true price of not having the active drain.

In conclusion:

I think Armlet bear is probably better as a backup strategy, but Radiance bear just has far more advantages, even if it's harder to identify. Not to say Armlet bear is bad, because it definitely destroys towers faster. Rather it's just in a fad phase right now.

---------

Edit: By the way, if you're wondering how much damage exactly Radiance does, if the bear is alive in a fight for 10 seconds, he'd have done as much damage as Zeus's level 3 ultimate.

[Thexor]

Eh, I'd still argue that Armlet first is more viable. Some of that's the logical fallacy of 'appeal to authority' (all the pros abandoned Radiance for Armlet), I'll admit, but I'd still recommend it. Part of this is because I think Radiance is pretty much useless on all heroes - the burn is mostly valuable on illusions, which don't benefit from the +damage, and the build-up is absolutely terrible, with the only non-recipe component being the most expensive single item in the game. Plus, Radiance becomes obsolete after ~30 minutes, when nobody but the squishiest of supports care about 45 damage per second and a Battlefury (or hell, just plain old right-clicks) are strong enough to clear most creep waves.

Countering #1:

First: I disagree strongly that melee heroes can't outcarry ranged heroes. Lifestealer is a perfect example - no AoE damage whatsoever (besides Infest's small burst damage), and I've never seen him built with Battlefury. Or PL, who's only AoE is illusions (which aren't terribly damaging unless there's a bunch attacking one target). At this time, they're the two most popular pro-tier carries, and neither of them are commonly built with cleave or have any other AoE damage. In fact, I can't think of very many top-tier carries that are ranged: AM, PL, Void, Lifestealer, even Spectre if she gains more popularity... I guess Luna supports your argument, but that's about it.

The solution? Many of them have slows (Open Wounds, Spirit Lance, Diffusal charges) or chase abilities (Time Walk, Blink, drum charges). And all of them tend to play with disabling supports. You can't be kited when your target is slowed or stunned.

LD's bear has innately high movement speed, at 320, making it only slightly slower than Luna and CK, and faster than every other hero in the game. It also always gets built with Phase Boots, which give it a peak movespeed of 375 + 16% = 435, along with zero collision. If your bear is being kited, you're doing something seriously wrong.

Then, what you're hoping for is a root. Move speed guarantees that you can attack your target at least a few times. If you land 3 hits (easy in the Phase Boots duration), you've got a ~50% chance of landing a root (entangle doesn't use PRNG). Once you've rooted the target, move speed becomes irrelevant. And the 45 damage Radiance burn + 60 base damage is nothing compared to the + 40 damage + 25 attack speed + 5 armour + 8 HP regen of an active bear Armlet, at half the price.

Countering #2:

Opportunity cost is a neat concept, but let me propose a different economic factor: time value of money. Radiance requires a flat 3800 for the Relic, and another 1350 for the recipe. This means that your offlane Lone Druid needs to farm up 3800 gold, and save it, without getting any benefit from the money he's been earning. None. Gold sitting in your vault is useless.

Compare to Armlet. The Gloves and Claws are 500 and 450 respectively, and both grant a decent benefit (especially the claws, which help immensely with last-hitting). The Helm costs more, at 950, but gives both armour and regen, which pairs nicely with the bear's innately high health. And the whole package can be completed with only 2600 gold total.

Basically: the Armlet components start paying off immediately. This, in turn, helps you farm the remaining cost of the full item. And the completed Armlet, in turn, lets you farm more gold for subsequent items much, much faster than if you were scrimping and saving for a fast Relic. An Armlet bear can start taking down towers shortly after LD gets level 7 and the bear learns Demolish. A Radiance bear needs to wait a very long time before the farm rolling in. Does a 20 minute Radiance sound amazing? How about a 10 minute (or less) Armlet? Don't forget that your Radiance is useless if the other team starts snowballing before you can buy it!

I'd also suggest that, if you really want the farm, consider getting a Midas. Leave it on the bear for the +attack speed, swap it over to LD when the cooldown comes off. You can get a Midas much earlier than a Radiance, meaning you get more farm out of it.

In summary:

If you want farm, Radiance is silly. 45 damage per second is nice, but it comes much later in the game than an Armlet and has possibly the worst build-up of any item in DotA 2, hindering its usefulness. It also provides nothing for the bear other than the burn aura, which itself becomes obsolete later in the game (a 3000 HP Lifestealer doesn't care in the least about your adorable 45 damage per second).

Radiance exists on bear because of the power of split pushing - Radiance burn still works if the bear is too far from the Druid, so you can safely farm distant lanes. If you're not using it to split push, then you're getting very little out of the item. Armlet starts contributing to the fight (and to the farm) much earlier, an essential trait in a metagame that forces early pushing over late farming. Most offlane bears won't be able to farm a Relic until the game is basically decided thanks to snowballing (probably by the other team, if LD's been farming and his team's been 4v5ing).

[umiman]

If you want, we can PM each other and I'll explain why Lifestealer can't carry, the number of times he's gotten Battlefury in competitions and why, etc. However, those points don't really seem on topic.

In any case, I don't ever believe in the "quote wars" style of internet argument because I think it's really childish and silly.

Furthermore, I don't think this argument can be solved with words. Simply because like two people arguing about whether PL or Faceless Void can outcarry one another, both parties have quite different expectations on the outcome based on facts, personal experience, foresight, and who got raped by what. I think the only way to see who is correct is to either find a way to 5v5 each other with equal teams somehow or wait a year and see what the metagame concerning LD has shifted to.

Either way I still think Radiance is better, though Armlet is still fine. It's not really the end of the world either way, just a relatively minor change in performance.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Though to be fair I have a 100% accuracy rate with predictions so far!

[Kagus]

Fun fact:  Putting Arcane Boots (huh?) on the bear will allow the bear to use things like Blade Mail and Mask of Madness.  Not to mention using the mana blast from the boots.  Also Dagon if you really want to make your team, puppies, and the world hate you (don't do this).

Other point of random contemplation:  Eye of Skadi costs 5675 (that includes an early 275 orb of venom) to Radiance's 5150.  Still, Radiance is the only one that allows for split pushing to the ridiculous degree that LD can pull it off to.


Personally, I don't think there's any one "correct" build, but rather many different viable builds better suited to specific situations and lineups.


And to wrap up this disjointed post, here's a random inconclusive test:  Faceless Void with Mask of Madness and Mjollnir (7300 total) did on average slightly less damage than Void with Manta Style and level 1 Diffusal Blade (8350 total) during the period of one Chronosphere at max level without Aghanim upgrade.  Target was a Sven with 4 hearts.

[umiman]

At one point I tried to do the following.

Soul Ring + Necro 3 on bear.

Necro 3 on LD.

I thought I could micro it.

I thought wrong.