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[Gamerboy4life]

Yes, I know how Broodmother works. I've heard of some people sometimes cutting a couple webs over to an adjacent lane to go over and support teammates, but I never seem to have enough to do so as I like to place my webs fairly close together so I can get from one to the other without losing the invisibility and speed, and also to make it harder for AOE opponents to flush me out. But yeah, thing I love about broodmother is pushing deep on suicide lane, pretty much unstoppable even if the rest of my team is utter crap, I know I can reach the enemy base against 1-2 other heroes, maybe 3 if I have a babysitter. But then again, it all depends on my early game farm, at least for me.

1: I usually grab a Ring of Basilus and some Tango, then upgrade to Aquila and Poor man's shield/Quelling blade as soon as I can, purchasing a courier if I have the extra cash.
But I've never really used her Q against heroes except as a finisher or if I just want to annoy the shit out of them.

2: I can't argue how necessary Tangoes are either until the webs are upgraded high enough, which is why they're my first buys.

3:Always grab a Quelling blade. Makes farming much easier..

4:I usually do something like this, but then the trees regrow in my webs, rendering them useless. So it doesn't work very often for me. I usually keep webs right in the lane, especially at good nabbing spots between trees where I can block an escape. But I'll take note to use the Q more often, as it sounds more useful than I've been warranting it. Should I replace my Aquila purchase with the Soul ring, or just forgo ring of Basilus in the first place to save for Soul Ring?

5:This is a big mistake on my part, I guess? I usually use spiderlings to attack creeps while I distract the heroes, and to enclose around so they can't escape. Killing 2-3 spiderlings for about 60-80 gold isn't going to be much compared to the 200-300 gold I receive and the almost instantaneous level up <10. I'll try jungling them next game, and see how that works, though they are little more than bullet shields imho, and wouldn't jungle very well from what I know of them.

6:I swear by BM's regen. I took on a Doom, Tinker, and Sniper all by my wee lonesome, (Though I was about 5 levels higher than them,) the Tinker and Sniper had caught me off guard maneuvering my 'lings and did quite a bit of damage to me, as I was already injured. They started to follow me down the lane where I had a multitude of webs to try and flush me out. I took out the Doom that lagged behind first, went over and started banging on Sniper next all the while Tinker was being surrounded by spiderlings and trying to take shots at me. I wouldn't of have gotten his kill if it wasn't for the spiderlings, as they pretty much held him in place as he tried to run.

But yeah, regen is the best part, it's hilarious to gank a hero that goes too far in your webs hoping to flush you out, and forgetting you already have full health/enough to kill him in the time he spent looking for you.

Although I do disagree with the letting them leave part, mass genocide on creeps is fun and all, but getting a good gank on an enemy hero, especially early game is EXTREMELY useful, and usually worth the risk of outrunning them in your web to try and get the kill, because even if you're surrounded in creeps, all you have to do is kill the hero and you're set, once you disappear the creeps will stop bugging you, and you walk away with a fresh new level and a pocket of gold.



But I've got another question, I've been taking to buying Orchid as one of my late middle/early late game purchases, the silencing effect I've found has helped me tremendously with mages like Zeus and Crystal Maiden, for example, but others swear by the BKB. Which is better, Orchid, or BKB, or is there an even better purchase than those two?
Although IMHO: The Orchid is hard to beat. It completely fixes Broodmother's mana problem, (Which is pretty major before player can obtain Aquila/Soul) and helps her gank squishy mages even easier.

[crazysheep]

Forcing enemy heroes back to fountain during the early game is crucial - every second they spend out of the lane is exp and gold denied to them. Doesn't matter whether you force them out by killing them or by making them retreat, it's pretty much the same deal.

As for orchid vs BKB, consider that BKB gives you bonus strength, and that orchid massively boosts your DPS. Most people would choose BKB if they're facing a stun/disable-heavy team.. whereas orchid works better against most invis heroes.

[umiman]

In the early game, it's actually better to force an enemy back to fountain without killing them. Because the respawn time is so short it actually takes them 4 - 5x longer to run back and TP back to the tower than to die and just TP back in. Since that's all time they spend not gaining any EXP and gold, it's a massive tradeoff.

If you're not spamming Q on Broodmother, you really should be considering it. It's like playing Zeus without spamming lightning everywhere. Might as well be playing Dragon Knight since he's basically the same thing in lane except without the Q spam.

[Korbac]

In the early game, it's actually better to force an enemy back to fountain without killing them. Because the respawn time is so short it actually takes them 4 - 5x longer to run back and TP back to the tower than to die and just TP back in. Since that's all time they spend not gaining any EXP and gold, it's a massive tradeoff.

If you're not spamming Q on Broodmother, you really should be considering it. It's like playing Zeus without spamming lightning everywhere. Might as well be playing Dragon Knight since he's basically the same thing in lane except without the Q spam.

And the invis.

Also, if you kill someone in the early game you get a large gold and xp boost which benefits you, but I agree that for the enemy it doesn't hurt them as much (weirdly). I'd still advise on the kills if possible.

https://dotabuff.com/matches/98472784

Had a great game today with my friends (Ainsley Harriot and Fern Britton). Game went pretty normally until enemy decided to GG push mid at about 30 minutes. I had just bought my blink dagger as Earthshaker and got level 3 Echo Slam. Team fight was just me blinking in, echo slam, Void chronos and kill Drow and Sniper, rest of team cleans up.

Void then went back to farming and we pushed out the lanes a little, until they tried the same thing again.
We responded the same way again, winning the teamfight.

This happened about five times before we won. Somewhere in there they took mid rax, but Void just kept on getting more and more fed and at some point they always clumped up enough for me to get my Echo Slam off (followed by the Chrono.) After the last fight we just gg pushed mid ourselves and won.

[tootboot]

Silencer's such a dick.  I literally just ruined a game by picking him.  Me and Disruptor laning against a solo Huskar.  Took about 2 minutes to harass him out of lane, he came back, got harassed out a second time even faster, so he abandoned.

[Mimidormi]

Like many others in this thread, my Steam inventory is overflowing with free Dota 2 copies, at the moment 13 up for grabs. Feel free to PM me if you want one or more.

Edit (16 January): Now 10 available

Edit (21 January): .. Now 11 available. Yeah, the more I give away, the more I receive from Steam.

[Tyg13]

I suppose you could make an argument that pushing the enemy out of lane is more detrimental to them because they actually spend more time running back than getting killed, but I feel like the gain that you get in gold is worth finishing them off. There's pretty much no reason not to go for the kill when possible, in my opinion. Though I suppose some numbers buff could go and calculate out the net gold loss from leaving lane and buying a TP compared to a TP and kill gold and prove me wrong.

[umiman]

I'm kinda curious to the exact specifics of this myself too, so I'll run some rudimentary numbers:

Boring calculation:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Since we're talking about early game, we'll do levels 1 - 6.

It takes about 20 - 30 seconds to run back to base from the side lane depending on your movespeed without boots. We won't count the cost or time of the TP scroll because you'll probably buy one regardless.

Also, we will ignore first blood because first blood is always far more beneficial to get. It's way more gold than a normal kill.

Creeps spawn every 30 seconds. Each wave has about 230 exp and about 190 gold. Based on the 20 - 30 seconds to run back, then TP back into lane, a hero is either going to miss 2 full waves, or 1.5 if he's lucky. So this gives us:

1. Total exp and gold cost to opponent for running back to base:
345 - 460 exp, 285 - 380 gold.
The range is actually much larger than this, because each individual creep has a range of gold given too but meh. Too lazy to count that.

2. Gold and exp gained from a kill for you:
200+(Dying Hero's Level)*9 = gold
Experience table

Level 1: 209 gold, 240 exp
Level 2: 218 gold, 280 exp
Level 3: 227 gold, 340 exp
Level 4: 236 gold, 420 exp
Level 5: 245 gold, 520 exp
Level 6: 254 gold, 640 exp

3. Gold and exp denied to enemy from dying:
Respawn timer = 4 * Level.

Level 1: 4 seconds.
Level 2: 8 seconds.
Level 3: 12 seconds.
Level 4: 16 seconds.
Level 5: 20 seconds.
Level 6: 24 seconds.

So, essentially what we can see is as follows...

At all levels from 1 - 6, you are denying less amounts of gold and exp than merely letting him run back to base and tp-ing back. Unless he has boots of course but we'll forget about that for now since most of the time you won't. Especially if you're doing bad enough that you can potentially die in lane. So that part really isn't in question. The real question is, at what point does the denying become more cost-efficient than the actual gold and exp gain for yourself?

Hrm... this probably depends on your hero vs the enemy's hero. Because from what we can see from the basic calculations, at all points in time from levels 1 - 6 and possibly even 7, the amount of gold and exp denied exceeds the amount of gold you'd have earned from the kill. This doesn't include the 20 - 30 seconds of freefarm time where you can freely concentrate on last hits. So if we follow that theory, then you're probably better off letting him run home all the time.

However, suppose you are an extremely gold hungry hero. Then I guess denies mean nothing to you. It'd be like a Faceless Void concentrating on denying. It helps him completely none. He needs to get shittonnes of farm and steamroll games. In this case, you're better off killing all the time (the idea of a Faceless Void getting kills on his own at this stage is pretty amusing though, he'd have to be some kind of Bashlord). But if instead of Faceless Void you were Crystal Maiden... then you should just let them run off as you don't even need the gold. It changes absolutely nothing. Them being out of gold and exp is way better. To illustrate why this is superior, running back to base at all stages of the levels 1 - 6 loses the enemy a good 400+ exp. This is one free level. The only point where this evens out with a kill is about level 4 and even then the gold denied is way higher than what you earn. Combine this with the 30 seconds of freefarm, you can easily build a two level advantage and a massive gold lead by the time they return if you managed to force them back before level 4. If you had killed them, you'd have a one level advantage, and they'd tp back in almost instantly so you don't get your freefarm.

So the question is. Does Broodmother prefer to ruin her opponents day? Or because so strong that nothing can stop her, even the other lanes who will inevitably try to stop her and she had no control over during the laning phase. I dunno. To be perfectly honest if I saw a kill I'd take it. Not because it was efficient or anything, but simply it's more fun. I guess it's up to you. In the end they kind of equal out at about level 6 so this really only concerns kills before then... which is kind of rare with Broodmother. She really needs her ult to kill things... or completely idiotic enemies sitting around at low hp waiting to die to her Q. But this also means that I wouldn't dive heroes for kills as a Broodmother as I really don't need gold THAT much. She gets so much of it anyway due to the fact that she never leaves the lane.

Tl;dr: Letting them run home is better until level 6 if you want to deny them lots of exp and gold and ruin their day completely. If you like money more, then kill them.


Edit: This has also taught me that if I'm failing in lane and I haven't reached level 4, I'd be better off committing suicide and tp-ing back than running back to base to heal. Maybe to neutrals.

[Alkhemia]

So what a good orchid time on clinkz, Funn1k had a 14 min one  but he Funn1k.

[umiman]

Orchid is pretty easy to get. I would expect it by about then too give or take a few minutes. There's nothing expensive to save up for in the Orchid, it's easier to get than a Force Staff because you don't have to constantly save up large amounts of unreliable gold.

Also Clinkz can instantly kill jungle camps and his orb makes last hitting so easy. Don't see why he would have trouble getting gold.

[Tyg13]

snip

Damn, that was rather informative. Hats off to you, sir.

I think it's actually rather important to know that, as a support, you're better off pushing an enemy out of lane than killing him. Too often you'll see your teammates, or even yourself, diving way beyond where they can just to finish off a low-hp enemy and then either getting caught out or just simply dying to tower aggro. I'm guilty of that, I have to admit :/ It's just too rewarding when you actually do kill them that you dive way too far and die stupidly.

[Glowcat]

So after my brother gifted this to me I went on a binge trying out the different heroes but one thing stuck out in my mind. The concentration of assholes is far greater than any other online community I've ever seen. It was to the point where every other game had somebody shouting nub or otherwise treating people like trash just because they didn't meet whatever expectations the person had. Hell, I even said in my second game that it was so and I got people expecting me to know the full ins and outs of the thing.

[Alkhemia]

So after my brother gifted this to me I went on a binge trying out the different heroes but one thing stuck out in my mind. The concentration of assholes is far greater than any other online community I've ever seen. It was to the point where every other game had somebody shouting nub or otherwise treating people like trash just because they didn't meet whatever expectations the person had. Hell, I even said in my second game that it was so and I got people expecting me to know the full ins and outs of the thing.

Welcome to all moba game though dota far the nicest of the 3 big ones. you read this yet http://www.purgegamers.com/welcome-to-dota-you-suck

[Glowcat]

Some good info in there that I was starting to pick up on on my own. Not that I didn't ask, but nobody responded. Also plenty of things that I'd have not figured out without a lot of time. Thanks for the link.

[Tyg13]

Oh, I'm not sure that the asshole quotient is higher here, just that the game tends to lend itself towards being an asshole. I've found myself restraining from raging at someone multiple times, not even because I was warranted in it, but just because of how the game works. If your teammate sucks, it can pretty much ruin your whole game. It's why I'm always so nervous before I go into a match: I could fuck up 4 other people's game just by being bad at the game. Sure, you can carry a bad teammate, much more so than in games like League of Legends, due to the way that characters scale in Dota 2, but you'll be essentially gimped.

This, coupled with the fact that each game of Dota 2 is an investment of 30-40 minutes, means that if your team sucks, you will have to sit there and get stomped endlessly for a good half hour. This is one of the most frustrating things you can deal with, as after a certain point you have zero control over the way the match plays out. And inevitably, when you get this frustrated, you will be tempted to yell and scream at your teammate. Not because it makes them better at the game, but because it makes you feel better.

I am in no way condoning the actions of the douchebags who make the game hell for newbs, but I can't help but empathize a bit. Of course, it sometimes works in your favor, and you just beat your opponents into a meaty pulp over and over again, but it never feels as rewarding as actually winning fair and square.