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[Simmura McCrea]

Playing support is harder than carrying. You should be proud. I always appreciate a good support player more than someone who picks a carry. Think about it. When you see a teammate pick a support hero, you know he's on the ball. Hell, I'm perfectly fine with a team that has no carries whatsoever and everyone buys wards. Something like Shadow Shaman, Lion, Jakiro, Tidehunter, and Leshrac. Sounds good to me. It's like a guaranteed won game.

Can you say 15 minute rax / 20 minute game?

Can you say 5 BKBs?

[umiman]

No one would have 5 BKBs before the game would have ended.

I personally find BKB extremely situational at best. I don't think it's all that great except in certain situations. BKB's stats are actually really subpar for the price. It's almost as bad as Aghanims. So whenever I see someone rush a BKB, I actually find it kind of amusing because:

1. They got BKB so early, so they'll end up with a tiny 4 second magic immunity when it comes time that they need it the most.
2. They do no damage. To compare it gives the same damage as phase boots but at 300% the cost. And 190hp. Woop.

Both of which are completely the opposite of what a carry wants. Especially now that you can't sell it any more.

BKB is for when you have 2 - 3 good items / are incredibly farmed and want to be unstoppable. Not for when you do no damage and are just a minor annoyance.


-----------------

In any case though, all I'm saying is that I much prefer to see support players than carry players. More useful. Wards are great. CC is awesome. And the game ends fast, whether we win or not.

[Korbac]

Many ulti's go through BKB anyway. My own experience of the item as the one time I had it as a carry was that the rest of my team just got CC'd and I got right - clicked to death. It didn't help me then.

Personally I think it's a good item, but it's not the game - winner I used to think it was when I began watching pro matches (4-5 months back IIRC.)

Also I don't think I've ever played with anyone who's had a BKB within 20 mins - either they were too crap at farming or they prioritized treads & bfury first or something.

EDIT : Pretty much my job in ~90% of my games : http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/857

[Alkhemia]

here more incite on the Sven and Magnus problem http://www.joindota.com/en/vods/2683-talkdota-11-eternalenvy-special-guest
Oh wait wrong one http://www.joindota.com/en/vods/2685-talkdota-11-question-time This one

[Alg]

Meh, that episode was just Puppey whining about things that have been that way for months/years (seriously the Empower=free battlefury thing have been that way since 6.67, 2 and a half years ago).


While I do agree that Magnus, and to a lesser extent Sven are too strong right now, he was completely off in his analysis, probably  because he's still butthurt about this. The biggest buffs Sven got were actually in 6.73, a year ago (no warcry cast time, God's Strength buffed and unpurgeable...), but the competitive scene kept viewing him as a crappy support instead of a carry and only realized his potential when he was buffed again to OP. The only thing that's really too much about him right now is that 300 Cleave which is a bit ridiculous and far too forgiving of bad positioning (which used to be Sven weakness).

Also, the problem with Magnus isn't Empower or his ult, he's had that for ages, it's the Skewer changes in 6.76 :
- Skewer now only considers heroes a valid target for dragging in consideration with its unit cap
- Skewer range increased from 800 to 1200
- Skewer AoE increased from 95 to 125

But Puppey completely lost focus there, he just went on a rant about "OP heroes" and how everything about them was imba, like a guy who just got owned in a pub, it was pretty sad to watch from a guy who is usually so insightful.

[Alkhemia]

True I can see your point with that But it still a problem that with less farm he can out carry all but Void and Medusa when he just a strength hero and the game is getting streamlined and simplified you really only have to play 5 man dota to win no need for strategic and tactical ideas.

If icefrog keeps going like this the game going to end up like HoN.

[Korbac]

True I can see your point with that But it still a problem that with less farm he can out carry all but Void and Medusa when he just a strength hero and the game is getting streamlined and simplified you really only have to play 5 man dota to win no need for strategic and tactical ideas.

If icefrog keeps going like this the game going to end up like HoN.

Pretty sure Sven's going to be nerfed back in the next patch, plus while 5 man dota is important you need to time it right otherwise you will not be farmed enough to push into the enemy's towers / enemy team.

[Alkhemia]

True I can see your point with that But it still a problem that with less farm he can out carry all but Void and Medusa when he just a strength hero and the game is getting streamlined and simplified you really only have to play 5 man dota to win no need for strategic and tactical ideas.

If icefrog keeps going like this the game going to end up like HoN.

Pretty sure Sven's going to be nerfed back in the next patch, plus while 5 man dota is important you need to time it right otherwise you will not be farmed enough to push into the enemy's towers / enemy team.

Yeah I just hope he does not end up like Morphling were he nerfed into oblivion well at this point it no be so bad but I don't think that the way the game should be balanced.

[Alg]

The distinction between str and agi as far as carry potential goes is completely irrelevant, and I have no idea why he brought that up, he should really know better. Tiny outcarries most agi heroes and so do Nai'x, Chaos Knight, Lycan, Skeleton King etc... What is he going to do next? Whine that Venomancer gets outcarried by an Obsidian Destroyer? (an intelligence hero!)

[Alkhemia]

The distinction between str and agi as far as carry potential goes is completely irrelevant, and I have no idea why he brought that up, he should really know better. Tiny outcarries most agi heroes and so do Nai'x, Chaos Knight, Lycan, Skeleton King etc... What is he going to do next? Whine that Venomancer gets outcarried by an Obsidian Destroyer? (an intelligence hero!)

CK is only a semi carry he still can't out carry the dedicated carry hero like Void and Anti-Mage you'll also never see a AM get a ultra kill in a vacuum with the farm that sven has and true but Outworld Destroyer is destroyed by BKB you can't counter a Sven that just does not cause you to lose
hero and there counters
CK-Aoe
OD-BKB
SK-mana burn
Lycan-take time to farm up and if you mess with him a little in the jungle he be able to do nothing
Sven-I really like to know
Magnus-Same
if you do know a way to Sven and Magnus please share I think most pro teams would love to know
and don't bring up pubs most of the thing that work in pubs don't work in competitive game like I've said before

Anyways test update today I hope we get a hero 

[Alg]

I don't remember bringing up pubs, and I did say that Sven and especially Magnus were too strong right now, although not nearly as much as they are made out to be.

CK can actually outcarry pretty much anyone  given equal amounts of farm (AoE doesn't counter him that much, his illusion are very tanky). But he usually doesn't get equal amounts of farm because he has no skill that allows him to farm fast. But that's beside my point anyway, which was that complaining about a str hero carrying harder than an agi one is just silly from Puppey since there have always been examples of that.

You counter Sven the same way you counter every melee carry with no high mobility spell (+12% ms for 8s isn't a high mobility spell) : with good positioning. It's made more difficult because of his crazy cleave now, but it's far from impossible. And pro teams apparently aren't that desperate for solutions against Sven since he's looking at a ~50% winrate right now in competitive play.

Magnus is more problematic, mostly because Skewer is absolutely insane now. It used to be about positioning too (it often is) and avoiding getting caught in Reverse Polarity but Skewer crazy range, big aoe and hero targetting allows him to completely destroy the enemy positioning. He's very similar in that way to Batrider and Dark Seer actually, which happen to be the other permabanned heroes right now. It's probably safer just banning him, or at the very least destroying his early game to delay his Arcane boots+Dagger for as long as possible.

Again, my point was that while they are legitimate points of complaint against Sven and Magnus, Puppey was just going all over the place in that segment, ranting about things that have been that way for a long time without the slightest issue.


Edit : A post on reddit that explains it very clearly.

23:16 Synd and Puppey are talking about times when Magnus "never had the cleave thing, remember that time when you had to buy a battlefury"... But man, when I look to http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Magnus#Balance_changelog

I can't even see the rework of Empower from version 6.71. I mean, the Empower has been almost as it is now for a really long time already. I think pro's were just not trying him out. Totally the same logic with Sven's buff. He was decent for a long time, but pro's didn't use it. So Icefrog just kept buffing them, step by step. And now, when he has buffed them to the overpowered stage, only now they realized how good these heroes are.

Don't try to blame Icefrog. Blame pro's who were scared to use other heroes.

Simple example, Fear's Sven's crit on Na'Vi, 1.4k crit for ultra-kill. Crit multiplier x2.7 - 520 damage without crit. Now take out the raw damage bonuses from Deadlaus (-81) and BKB (-24). You end up having 415 base damage. Now take out the ulti (200%). We have 139 base damage. And let's use this to think, what would be the output crit in 6.74 version.

139 * 2.8 = 390 base damage. Plus Deadlaus and BKB - 390+81+24 = 495 damage (in current version it is 520, 25 damage - HUGE difference, yea?). Crit multiplier, 495*2.7 = 1337 damage. Yea, these 63 damage is what ruled the fight. Seriously, Puppey?

[Alkhemia]

True will see how the game goes in the long run once the stronger hero get in like Pit Lord, Phoenix and Arc warden and even sooner once the Bradwarden and Traxex and Silencer are in that will really shake thing up.

[ukulele]

I think some of you fail to see that what makes heros "op" or not its not the buffs they get but how you can compare them to others. Its not only the fact that those got buffed but also remember that almost all other carries got nerfed and some preatty hard.

[umiman]

I don't think Morphling constitutes all other carries.

I still don't really see the problem with Sven. I agree that it's not Sven that's scary, but Rhinomantaur; who just amplifies everything Sven does to donkeyballs level. Sven by himself is not the worst thing in the world. I remember saying all this a few weeks ago...

And yeah, I think Puppey was just butthurt about getting owned. Why doesn't he ban out either of those heroes if he thought they were so broken. Who is he afraid of getting through the ban pick phase if those guys are so damn op in his mind?

I like Alg's post there.

[Alkhemia]

I don't think Morphling constitutes all other carries.

I still don't really see the problem with Sven. I agree that it's not Sven that's scary, but Rhinomantaur; who just amplifies everything Sven does to donkeyballs level. Sven by himself is not the worst thing in the world. I remember saying all this a few weeks ago...

And yeah, I think Puppey was just butthurt about getting owned. Why doesn't he ban out either of those heroes if he thought they were so broken. Who is he afraid of getting through the ban pick phase if those guys are so damn op in his mind?

I like Alg's post there.

I'll ask why he does not just ban them next Dota Talk maybe I'll get a answers.