Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[debvon]

People are going to disagree that "LoL isn't skill based", but I have to agree in general. DotA is a hostile atmosphere until you are good enough for people to stop being hostile, so in that way I am not sure how the DotA playerbase is so damn large.

Ya LoL has it's few skill shots, like cleaver... um ashes arrow?  And maybe one or two more things, but mostly it's spam, spam, auto attack, spam, run

I disagree with that. Perhaps at low level play this is the case, but when you're working and communicating with a team to WIN a game, managing your abilities and positions becomes top priority. Every single champion can be played with the "spam everything and run" attitude, but that's not league of legends.

[Rex_Nex]

Same goes for any moba. Only difference is that you cant "spam everything and run" even in low level play. Youll just get endlessly raped.

[debvon]

Low level Dota 2 play is not going to be the same forever. When Dota 2 has been around for as long as  League of Legends, there will be a much larger player base and a lot more newbies. It's still in beta, I don't understand why people are comparing it to other games before it has even been released to the majority of the public

[penguinofhonor]

This isn't a game for casuals. You want casual you go play league of legends, not trying to be a dick. Dota has always been a highly skilled game that takes weeks to a month to learn, many months to years to master. This game isn't for people who are new to MOBA, casuals, newbies in general, etc. It's just not gonna be good for you until you get past being a noob, and not being a casual with this game.

Also league of legends skill means absolutely nothing in hon/dota. 1000+ hours put into lol meant nothing when I switched over to hon. Absolutely nothing. Dota/hon is just far more complex and skill based than lol with a very big difference in playstyle between them.

League is a highly skilled game that takes weeks to a month to learn and many months to years to master as well. It's just not as miserable for new players.

And complexity isn't something to brag about, and doesn't make something more skill based.

Low level Dota 2 play is not going to be the same forever. When Dota 2 has been around for as long as  League of Legends, there will be a much larger player base and a lot more newbies. It's still in beta, I don't understand why people are comparing it to other games before it has even been released to the majority of the public

Because these things are the things hardcore DotA players love about DotA and will remain core to the game forever: deny, unnecessary complexity, "overpowered" moves on every hero, horribly long CC, being able to harm your allies, etc. These are the mechanics that people wave around as reasons why DotA is more skill-based than league. DotA 2 is not completely new - many of the things we've learned from the original DotA will definitely remain in DotA 2.

[webadict]

This isn't a game for casuals. You want casual you go play league of legends, not trying to be a dick. Dota has always been a highly skilled game that takes weeks to a month to learn, many months to years to master. This game isn't for people who are new to MOBA, casuals, newbies in general, etc. It's just not gonna be good for you until you get past being a noob, and not being a casual with this game.

Also league of legends skill means absolutely nothing in hon/dota. 1000+ hours put into lol meant nothing when I switched over to hon. Absolutely nothing. Dota/hon is just far more complex and skill based than lol with a very big difference in playstyle between them.

It's not that LoL isn't skill-based, because that's false on premise. It's that LoL has less variables that you control. It's like playing Chess with less pieces. It involves greater utility of your fewer assets, which can be easier to learn because you can focus more on them, but then you can preform greater assessment of your pieces. So, is LoL easier to learn: yes. Is LoL less skill-based: no. It is less things to take into account, though I suppose you can assume the ability to factor in more variables to preform similar feats in each game requires skill, I would assert that it requires similar amounts of skill, as you still need to outguess your opponents who are as equally restricted as you are. You just don't have to know the meticulous things DotA has, which makes the game more accessible, which, after all, is what it's all about seeing as how you're making a game you want more people to play.

The only thing you can say about DotA is that there is a higher depth of play than LoL, and I can't argue against that. So, there are higher skill caps than LoL, which means LoL can eventually reach certain key "opening moves" faster than DotA. Like the solo top and mid, duo bot, and jungler. That took a while to find. But, it doesn't make it less skill-based.

[Astral]

many of the things we've learned from the original DotA will definitely remain in DotA 2.

DotA 2 as it is now is just a carbon copy of DotA with original graphics. Almost exactly how Heroes of Newerth started out.

That said, I do feel a huge surge of nostalgia, but the spell effects don't seem to pop as much as they did, and some of the themes for the heroes seem... off. Other than that, it is just DotA once more. I want to see more graphical options, such as the ability to not have unnecessary interface crowding your screen (since I thought we moved past having 1/3 of your screen obscured after the days of Warcraft 3) and the option to zoom out, if only a little bit more, because I don't like being able to see the equivalent of the character portrait when my camera is practically next to the heroes face.

On another note: is it just me, or do the vast majority of people who play tend toward being some of the worst DotA players I've experienced in a while?

[Rex_Nex]

Remember how in WC3 you got kicked from the game if you havent played before?

They cant do that in DotA 2, so thats the people you are seeing

[umiman]

The pool of players right now is relatively small... only several thousand at any one time, split up into many servers. So the matchmaking is terrible and really no different from the random games people used to do on Battlenet.

[webadict]

Remember how in WC3 you got kicked from the game if you havent played before?

They cant do that in DotA 2, so thats the people you are seeing

That's the exact kind of mentality that made getting into DotA extremely hard.

[Vherid]

This isn't a game for casuals. You want casual you go play league of legends, not trying to be a dick. Dota has always been a highly skilled game that takes weeks to a month to learn, many months to years to master. This game isn't for people who are new to MOBA, casuals, newbies in general, etc. It's just not gonna be good for you until you get past being a noob, and not being a casual with this game.

Also league of legends skill means absolutely nothing in hon/dota. 1000+ hours put into lol meant nothing when I switched over to hon. Absolutely nothing. Dota/hon is just far more complex and skill based than lol with a very big difference in playstyle between them.

League is a highly skilled game that takes weeks to a month to learn and many months to years to master as well. It's just not as miserable for new players.

And complexity isn't something to brag about, and doesn't make something more skill based.

and then you couldn't be anymore wrong.

This isn't a game for casuals. You want casual you go play league of legends, not trying to be a dick. Dota has always been a highly skilled game that takes weeks to a month to learn, many months to years to master. This game isn't for people who are new to MOBA, casuals, newbies in general, etc. It's just not gonna be good for you until you get past being a noob, and not being a casual with this game.

Also league of legends skill means absolutely nothing in hon/dota. 1000+ hours put into lol meant nothing when I switched over to hon. Absolutely nothing. Dota/hon is just far more complex and skill based than lol with a very big difference in playstyle between them.

It's not that LoL isn't skill-based, because that's false on premise. It's that LoL has less variables that you control. It's like playing Chess with less pieces. It involves greater utility of your fewer assets, which can be easier to learn because you can focus more on them, but then you can preform greater assessment of your pieces. So, is LoL easier to learn: yes. Is LoL less skill-based: no. It is less things to take into account, though I suppose you can assume the ability to factor in more variables to preform similar feats in each game requires skill, I would assert that it requires similar amounts of skill, as you still need to outguess your opponents who are as equally restricted as you are. You just don't have to know the meticulous things DotA has, which makes the game more accessible, which, after all, is what it's all about seeing as how you're making a game you want more people to play.

The only thing you can say about DotA is that there is a higher depth of play than LoL, and I can't argue against that. So, there are higher skill caps than LoL, which means LoL can eventually reach certain key "opening moves" faster than DotA. Like the solo top and mid, duo bot, and jungler. That took a while to find. But, it doesn't make it less skill-based.

Except it is less skill-based. Every hero is broken down into simple tank dps healer archtypes, and everyone can carry. In dota every single hero is pretty much completely unique and situational. lol has cater-to-scrub consistencies such as, not canceling potions when attacked, summoner spells, skill=runepagesandmasteries, there's no denying, the game is the slowest paced of dota/hon/lol, scaling abilities, recalling, etc etc. It caters to casual and scrubs way too much. Believe me, it requires far less skill to play lol, the whole fewer assets thing doesn't work like that in lol, it's like looking at WoW vanilla, and then looking at it now. Less assets, which allows retards to more easily get a grasp on things. Lol is not chess with less pieces, its chess with all queens for pieces. There's barely any affect items in dota as well. You're basically saying that for example, pug healing in wow has less assets than raid healing but it requires the same amount of skill. It doesn't.

Believe me too, I've played more league than I have with dota and hon so far, maybe not dota hon combined, but still a lot. I'm at the point where I have HEAVILY experienced all three games, dota style games are pretty much all I've been playing for the past 2 years. I even played league first. League was very very easy to learn, barely took any time at all to start learning the majority of the heroes, and only after a couple months was I already good at the game. Sure down the road is when I hit point of probably being better then most people I came across but it was still only a few months. Been playing hon for that amount of time and now dota 2 for almost the same amount of time as that training phase, not even close. There's also a reason why when you transfer that much experience and skill from league to say hon or dota, and then ending up to being the biggest scrub as if I never played a moba before. There's obviously a difference in skill, and dota brings it to a whole new level.

[webadict]

It's not a difference in skill. It's a completely different game. You can't assume one requires more skill because you yourself have just proven that each is completely different.

Let's say I play a game of regular chess. I am fairly good at regular chess. Cool.

Now, there is another type of game called baroque chess. All of the rules are pretty similar. However, the pieces move and capture differently. Suddenly, I am terrible at the game. Why? How? Shouldn't I be just as good, as it's just a chess game? No. It's a totally different game. Sure, it seems like it might be the same, but it's not. What this doesn't prove is that baroque chess requires more skill.

As an example, my friend, who is a fairly good DotA player, played LoL with me. He was terrible. Clearly, this proves that LoL is more skill-based... Of course it doesn't. It proves this isn't the same game. There are similar elements, similar tactics, and similar rules, but not the same.

So, stop being high and mighty about it. It's really annoying. LoL doesn't require less skill. DotA doesn't require less skill. HoN doesn't require less skill. These games are all different games. Got it? Cool.

[penguinofhonor]

Except it is less skill-based. Every hero is broken down into simple tank dps healer archtypes, and everyone can carry. In dota every single hero is pretty much completely unique and situational. lol has cater-to-scrub consistencies such as, not canceling potions when attacked, summoner spells, skill=runepagesandmasteries, there's no denying, the game is the slowest paced of dota/hon/lol, scaling abilities, recalling, etc etc.

All I see in this is "Frustrating annoying things = skill." Like really, tell me how much skill it takes to walk back to the base instead of recalling. Oh crap guys, you right click and wait like 30 seconds instead of pressing B and waiting 8! And no, having to weigh stronger repercussions from a longer absence is not more skill, it's just a different consideration. Otherwise it would be a direct improvement to the game to have spawn lock you in a cage for 30 seconds whenever you ran back to grab items.

And scaling abilities and a slow pace are just different, not inherently more or less skilled at all. Like, look at chess. Now look at speed chess, where everyone has to make their move within 10 seconds. Speed chess is more fast-paced, but it lacks as much possible strategization. In return, it rewards on-the-go decision making. I'm ignoring scaling abilities being less skilled because I don't even know what you're trying to say there.

And rune pages, masteries, and summoner spells allow for more exercise of skill, not less. There are more opportunities to use your knowledge to take advantage of your playstyle and champions with them.

[debvon]

You wouldn't understand, you're just a casual. Apparently. 

[KaelGotDwarves]

This thread is going a direction I suggest ya'll stop.

[Vherid]

Except it is less skill-based. Every hero is broken down into simple tank dps healer archtypes, and everyone can carry. In dota every single hero is pretty much completely unique and situational. lol has cater-to-scrub consistencies such as, not canceling potions when attacked, summoner spells, skill=runepagesandmasteries, there's no denying, the game is the slowest paced of dota/hon/lol, scaling abilities, recalling, etc etc.

All I see in this is "Frustrating annoying things = skill." Like really, tell me how much skill it takes to walk back to the base instead of recalling. Oh crap guys, you right click and wait like 30 seconds instead of pressing B and waiting 8! And no, having to weigh stronger repercussions from a longer absence is not more skill, it's just a different consideration. Otherwise it would be a direct improvement to the game to have spawn lock you in a cage for 30 seconds whenever you ran back to grab items.

And scaling abilities and a slow pace are just different, not inherently more or less skilled at all. Like, look at chess. Now look at speed chess, where everyone has to make their move within 10 seconds. Speed chess is more fast-paced, but it lacks as much possible strategization. In return, it rewards on-the-go decision making. I'm ignoring scaling abilities being less skilled because I don't even know what you're trying to say there.

And rune pages, masteries, and summoner spells allow for more exercise of skill, not less. There are more opportunities to use your knowledge to take advantage of your playstyle and champions with them.

You must not understand the point of getting a free teleport scroll.

No, builds =/= skill.