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[Rex_Nex]

He's still a invis hero though, which makes him good in most matches.

[Rez]

Against lazy pubs, maybe.  Invis takes a skill slot and isn't hard to counter if someone is actually worried about you.

[Alg]

Invisibility as an escape mechanism isn't hard to counter. Invis as an initiating tool (which is the whole point of vendetta) is another other story entirely, unless you like to pop dust randomly or put sentry ward everywhere you go.

[Alkhemia]

I love Leshrac while the whole enemy team fought mid 4 or 5 time and tried to push to racks I just killed all there 2nd and 3rd tier tower

[head]

Ugh, the camera in this game is fucking horrible.

[Rez]

play dota for a bit and you'll realize how awesome it is.

[ukulele]

Play for more than a bit, if you play a bit you will hate it for its strong points and move to LoL.

[Astral]

Yeah... DotA isn't for the faint of heart. The learning curve for every little machination working against you is pretty steep, though not comparable to Dwarf Fortress. More like EVE Online, I suppose: lots of memorization of minor details that affect everything when they pile up, and training the mechanical skill for things like last hitting, skill shots, spell casts, and the innate differences between something as basic as the varying heroes' attack animations.

Bloodseeker's animation still blows hearty chunks. The swing back is terrible, which is a huge difference from someone like Sniper, whose projectile and animation are very nearly instant.

[Rez]

Fewer spreadsheets though. And the combat isn't based on lag and numbers .

I'd imagine the thing preventing icefrog and valve from buffing bs's attack animation is that his only strong point is last hitting creeps.  He doesn't do anything else very well and a buff to that would actually make him pickable.

Of course, that argument falls apart when you look at the heroes like invoker who are incredibly strong at every thing.  And yes, invoker is the hero I complain about now.

[Rex_Nex]

I'm not sure anything can be done to invoker to keep him balanced while being both playable for normal people and keeping his playstyle.

He's already just eh if you don't use his spells dynamically, balancing him would make him absolute crap for the average player since they don't do that.

Most of his power is just from having so many spells. He has something for every situation, and you'd need a pretty huge nerf to balance that out. Like I said, that kind of nerf would make him unplayable for the normal players... seems like keeping him the way he is, is the lesser of two evils.

[Astral]

I'm actually quite good at Invoker. His true strength lies in the fact that he can do just about anything. He can carry, but not as well as a true agility carry, he can get fairly tanky, he can nuke crazily well with a small selection of spells to start, which gets better as you go, and his spells level with you all through the game, rather than just at four ranks. The fact that getting an Aghanims Scepter on him makes his ultimate be 2 seconds of delicious cooldown and cost no mana brings his nuke potential to just plain stupid levels.

But if you let an Invoker get his Scepter, then you're doing it wrong.

On the other hand... I have Ghost Walk wired in to my reflexes for those "oh shit" moments, as well as the other spells that make it much easier to escape. QQE does the ice wall, WWQ for Tornado...

The real fun with him is the fact that he's an overly complex hero, with lots to learn and a few varying playstyles among the order you take his skills alone, whereas most heroes have one usual defined usefulness to their skill sets. Are you aiming to do more damage overall? Max E, get lots of attack, and carry while your spells act as support for your rape. Supporting someone in lane with a damage over time skill or fast attacks? QQQ and Cold Snap, watch as their damage over time spell procs it (a real pain in the ass when combined with Axe, as I've learned). Survivability in lane? Q and W are your best friends.

My two main builds involved maxing E first and taking mid, as with sufficient timing a nearly 500 damage global nuke (on a delay) allows you to snipe people who don't pay attention fairly easily. One point in W, max Q, and get EEW to Meteor (or meat ball, as he calls it sometimes) and either QQQ Cold Snap (to proc the ministun for every piece of damage and afterburn you do) or QWE Deafening Blast, to push them into the damaging path of the meteor.

The other one seems to be the most widely used, which is the EMP/Tornado combo. Lay down WWW EMP, hit them with a WWQ Tornado directly after, which holds them in the area long enough to completely decimate their mana.

[Alkhemia]

hmm my fps has gone down since the newest patch

[Rez]

imo, quas wex is a better build if you aren't sure you're going to win fast.  If you've skilled exort primarily, your disables and stuns all suck mid-late game, which is when invokers exort damage starts to be less scary.  It's not an issue if your team has plenty of cc already and you're playing a dps role, but the disable lengths are tremendously different between quas-wex and exort-quas invoker at around level 14 or 15.

It's pretty simple to balance him.  nerf his bonus stats through qwe and the exort damage.  I also don't think he's a hero where you can point to different skill levels and say,"He's bad here for the reasons he is good here", like you can with a hero like huskar.  Most invokers will only use 2 or 3 spells for the entirety of a match and most invokers will only need to use 2 or 3 spells.  Sunstrike, cold snap, forge spirit or tornado, emp are enough in most skill-levels.  Even using more than that is a minor inconvenience, quickly overcome if you play him regularly, as astral clearly shows.  Why should every hero cater to people who can't learn or practice?  There are other AoS for them, that explicitly eschew heroes that require expertise or knowledge to play or play against.

I digress. The thing that makes him too strong is the fact that he can beat everyone mid.  Sidelane invoker, skilling wex and quas, is still really strong, but his ability to out-lane mid with exort-quas, is what makes him imbalanced at all levels of play.  The combination of really absurd auto-attack damage and excellent regen with quas makes him way too potent.

If my math is right, exort invoker is looking at 91 damage with one blade of attack and 1 ggbranch at level 5.  Pugna, with the highest int gain, will hit only 75 damage by that time with the same items.  If he skilled only stats to level 5, pugna could get 85 damage.  Roofie can only give the individuals on his team +4 hp/s with maxed living armor (granted that comes out to 20 hp/s during the day for his team as whole).  Basically, invoker can get the kind of damage and regen that most heroes can only get by crippling their build and still is capable of similar levels of cc and nukes.  SF, with the same items, manages to get 100 damage by lvl 5 with max souls (3 raze, 2 necro).

----------------------------

I na'd and had some fun.  Not much to do once they get mad and buy a gem and sentries, though.  WAIT, I'll go blink and dagon 5! 

[Rex_Nex]

Nerfing his bonus stats won't help. He was overpowered before he even got stats from his spells... again, it's the sheer volume of spells. He can do anything. You'd have to make all his spells teeter on the edge of terrible to make him nonviable in the hands of aznpro, and right now his spell combos are between "as good as any other heroes" and "as good as an ultimate", which is crazy.

Oh boy, you should of seen Invoker before the alacrity nerf. Imagine having the best damage in the game... along with the highest attackspeed currently on the map... at the same time. That was Exort Wex Invoker. Put some lifesteal on 'Voker and suddenly you had better DPS then most people will all game as well as a tanking ability that rivals anybody as long as you're not disabled. Hell, you can get this even after the nerf, it just isn't so extreme.

I used to play him as a straight up DPS carry, ending the game with hilarious damage values like 300 and a maxed attack speed. Fun times.

[Rez]

If you got rid of the passive int gain on exort, it'd lower his damage by 6 in my scenario; reduce the damage from each exort instance to 2/4/6/... would reduce his damage by 9.  He'd then just be a hero with above average auto damage and a global nuke.

I think we have different conceptions of how stronk he is.