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[penguinofhonor]

You can do this in the WC3 editor, too, if I remember correctly. Just make a unit variable for each jungle creep, then spawn the creatures and set each variable to its appropriate creature. Then give the spawning trigger an "if X creature variable is alive" condition, although I'm not sure if that specific condition exists. An "if X creature variable is on the map" condition should work in its stead, though.

I think it was one of those things like deny. It was in originally because of the WC3 defaults, then everyone started using it, and at that point removing it is horrible because you're making the game "less skill based".

[Astral]

In a way, yes, some of the less intuitive mechanics have become so deeply ingrained within the game that most longtime DotA players would probably throw a fit if they were removed. Myself included, to be perfectly honest, since I've been playing it since I got Warcraft 3/TFT somewhere around 2004 or so, if not a bit earlier when I'd stay over at a friends house and abuse his computer, since mine wasn't up to the task at the time.

On the other hand, it does add a bit more depth to the game. The randomization, the ability to micro creeps in order to stack multiple camps at the same time (or just skillful microing in general), minor variances that can lead to a large gap in gold, the chance based mechanics that have to be either accounted for, such as firing up hill (a relic from Starcraft days that was intentionally left in DotA) by either itemization or moving to a more tactical position, or even the more basic things such as orb walking via animation cancellation... there is a lot more to learn and master than in most games.

Even something as basic as denying takes twice the amount of concentration than simply taking out enemy creeps, as you have to pay attention to two sets of health bars, as well as any enemy heroes in the lane (and possibly, depending on your team's level of communication, enemy heroes not in their correct lanes)... as well as if the positioning of the creeps are good for farming, or if you should back up, or if you should rice the lane by autoattacking your creeps once they get below 50% health, in order to move your lane back to the tower, or if you are in a position to creep pull (Scourge top lane has a disadvantage here, because you can pull the "hard" camp on the left with a quick tree chop from Sentinel)...

Juking is another field of play entirely. Abusing line of sight, cutting trees in such a way that allows you a quicker exit path (or lures enemies deeper into an inescapable trap), and using the map geometry to your advantage when appropriate (a la Pudge, who can just hook people into places that they won't get out of until they die... which is better if you get a Hatchet, which allows you to create those areas in denser forests)....

Sure, it sets the learning curve higher, but it does make for a much more interesting (meta)game once you start to grasp the basics. Kinda like Dwarf Fortress.

I don't agree with all the limitations of the Warcraft 3 engine they've left in, but I expect they'll start learning and playing within their new engine once they start getting all the heroes added in. Being able to lifesteal on Luna without losing a full 4 point skill was pretty nice. Then again, they may have fixed that between the time I stopped playing the Warcraft 3 version and now. Enough drunken rambling, time for bed.

[umiman]

I definitely agree. I think this definitely lies in the "don't fix what ain't broke" category since the ramifications of messing with the system would probably piss too many people off.

I personally like it though. I found it bizarre and confusing at first, but after a few practice rounds getting the hang of stacking and pulling, it's like second nature to me now. And yeah, I definitely feel it adds quite a lot more depth to the neutral camps.

Hell, it gives me more things to do as a support in the short lane, which is always fun. Having things to do as a farmless support is good.

[Alkhemia]

Stacking I have not got the hang yet but pulling is easy.

[Rez]

You better know how to stack before you pull.  Few things enrage me more than a lane partner continually single pulling the lane.

[ranter]

God I love jungling in DOTA compared to league of legends. I use to play skarner in LoL and Lycan in dota, so I know the problems of the league

Jungling alone is not viable in LoL: Fast creep regen, low bounty and XP, having to walk across the whole map to go to a creep camp and having to eat every single attack the creeps do make jungling absolutely a pain in LoL. God, about two or three heroes can jungle without riot giving them a heavy mana susteinance via blue golem. And can kill that golem and end with some live without a pull without a few potions.
The only good thing about jungling in LoL is the solotop guy getting extra EXP and being constantly MIA to gank guys. And you better gank, otherwise you'll end underfed and underleveled

Now look at jungling ewith any unit tanking the hits in DOTA. Here the problem isn't dealing with the creeps, but getting ganked. Let a Lone druid or a nature's profit farm alone in the jungle during half an hour and you'll regret it during the rest of the match. It makes it lots more of fun. And not having towers between campos let you even do the enemy jungle just by being a bit careful.

Also, the jungle is just great to play with the trees. A single tree cut down can open loads of new posibilities.

[Denzi]

Pfffft... Not knowing original dota mechanics is such a pain when trying to play this game. Even not knowing the items or a skilling order is completely detrimental...

Download Dota 2 >> Hop into a (normal) bot game as Dragon Knight (Hey he looks cool, and he's strength so that means he is tankier, right?) >> Pull a 3/15/9 loss at the 39 minute mark

Log back on the next day >> Hop into a (normal) bot game as Clockwerk (Hey, he is strenght as well, but maybe I'll have better luck if I try to blend in with the other bots) >> Pull a 5/8/20 loss win at 55 minutes

It's completely screwing with me how much squisher your character can be in this game   

[umiman]

Oh yeah. When I first started DotA I swore I'd never jungle because it was way too complicated and luck based with all the random spawns and what not. But I sooned learned it was just way more fun, engaging, and rewarding than jungling in LoL. There are just so many secrets and techniques beyond simple timing which open up so many avenues for skill.

Certainly there's still quite some luck involved in the creep spawning (if there are two furbolg spawns at start and your name is Lycan, you're pretty boned) but I've come to accept that it can make the game far more dynamic. After all, the same two furbolg start is hilariously overpowered for people like Chen and Enchantress.

[Rez]

Well, the thing is that there are only 3 or 4 good junglers in dota and they're almost all pick/bans or late carries.  If you look at the 4 most popular jungler, prophet, enigma, lycan, and chen/enchantress, you'll quickly see a common trend.  Without summons, jungling is incredibly dangerous and very slow, relative to laning.  Even syllabear will farm faster in a lane than in the jungle.

There are other heroes who can jungle, but it's almost never worth it, because their gpm and epm will be much lower than someone who's in lane.  Even natures prophet is a somewhat slow jungler, only saved by the fact that he can globally gank at level 2.  Same with chen and enchantress, their jungle is saved by the enormous ganking and pushing power they can pull out by level 2 or 3.

[Rex_Nex]

I dont know if he is in DotA 2 yet as I haven't played in a while, but Naix the Lifestealer is a top-notch jungler with no summons.

[Rez]

He's not.  He farms significantly slower in the jungle than in lane and he's a low-hp jungler with no good escape before level 6.  If you put him in-lane, he'll spend most of his time at full hp and easily get the last hit there are.  In jungle, he'll spend most of his time with half health and desperately needing to stay in jungle to keep pace with the opponents laning carry.  If the jungle naix dies once or twice, he's lost any advantage there might have been over a laning naix, in terms of epm and gpm.

[Rex_Nex]

I dont see how that is true. He is terrible at last hitting for a melee; half his damage is from his lifesteal, which works best with high HP targets. This also reduces how much he actually steals. He also has absolutely nothing to stop a determined ranged char from completely shutting down the lane on him. He's completely reliant on having your ranged buddy in your lane controlling your lane for you to farm in.

Jungle Naix really shouldn't die. I can see one dying in lane, but you're (hopefully) jungling in a warded forest with a full hp-on-demand spell and a massive slow.

[CT]

Jungling naix is highly conditional to your skill and your opponents. In my opinion while naix can jungle in a pinch there are far better jungles to choose.  Furion and chen being my top picks. I have seen jungle naix be awesome but it can get wrecked so hard. Roaming lifestealer however is actually quite scary to play against but if you do you forfeit any carry potential as you will only be getting sporadic farm and xp.

[Denzi]

Hey I played another match of dota today and completely flopped

Just curious though but do we have a steam group dedicated to Bay12 Dota, or are most of yal part of the DFC group? Would maybe like to play a game with some of you sometime so I can make you rage quit from how bad I am maybe get a little help learning how to play. At my current rate it'll be a couple ice ages before I've internalized all of the skills and heroes and the like and I'll still not have any amazing idea on what I should buy and when and what order to skill a hero up for.

[ranter]

Also, there are some... "Unorthodox" ways to jungle. Like stacking a lot of creeps with pudge and rotting them to death surviving via salves. 6 levels in a row. I'm sure that there must be viable methods like that for other characters. I heard shadow demon can make an excellent jungler if you know how to (Though it isn't worth it. At low levels you want your shadow demon raping the enemy lane with shadow poison stacks, not in the jungle)