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Author Topic: Dota 2  (Read 243698 times)

Stworca

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #3270 on: August 11, 2013, 07:12:17 am »

Nerf what exactly? They weren't carried by any overpowered strat that can be nerfed. Alchemist BAT during ulti is the only possibility for a nerf (possibly a nerf to Basher item instead). Naga cannot possibly be nerfed any more, the only way would be to make her ult go through BKB to stop the 5v1 turnaround in teamfights.. But that will lead to other stompy tactics. Maybe net not going through BKB anymore.. But that defeats the purpose of the hero.

Maybe targetted spells not being able to target people in the Rosh pit without being there themselves. Alch stun flying from the trees for example.

There is really nothing to nerf that can be easily pointed out. Except for Basher, which is the current item to rule them all. How would you nerf it, though.. Add a bigger cooldown to stop permabash? That might bring Void back. Possibly open the world for space cow and slardar.

Perhaps rework Alch, but not nerf it. Perhaps change things that go through BKB.. But they JUST reworked Space Cow and all bashes to do just that.
If they change Alch attack speed, they'll just switch from Battlefury to Mjollnir faster. Space Cow's core is Mask of Madness anyway.

Any ideas?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 07:23:10 am by Stworca »
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ranter

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #3271 on: August 11, 2013, 08:06:11 am »

I think alch need a nerf on the BAT to make him less of a hard carry. Right now he can dominate mid game, and still slice through all but the hardest carries on late game without much of a problem. Other mid game carries like naix and NS fall off harder than him late game, but I think that alch having both that mid and late game potential is just a tad too strong.

Visage is just too strong too at all the phases of the game. He has a fucking huge DPS nerf (By the way, grave chill on tiny is just cruel. Try it) with a slow added while also giving the ms and AS to visage, a huge nuke on short CD, a boatload of resistance to everything, making it hard to nuke him to oblivion at the start and the familiars. He might have a high skill ceiling, but at high levels he is just way too good. Even Chen and LD have shit abilities until one gets about level 3-4 or the other farms, but a visage at level one in a trilane with only one point on soul assumption can do a ton of damage.

And bat is going to be picked as long as he has that ult. The same happened with Skarner, who has the same ult in LoL, and there isn't even force staff there.

Or maybe Valve will just start fixing bugs and get those guys a bit toned down that way. Visage familiars specially need it.
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Stworca

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #3272 on: August 11, 2013, 09:21:13 am »

Grave chill on tiny is indeed amazing. Especially if he tries attacking full-untouchable enchantress with shiva's flying everywhere. The fight is over, and that attack never connects.  ;D

I guess Visage nerf is the one that needs to come eventually, it's just that not all teams have picked him, and not all visage tri's have won. That's probably why it didn't stand out so much.
Alch BAT nerf seems fair, but only during his ult. The regular non-ult Alch is weak as it is... Maybe increase the downtime of ult? Much like Lycans, it up pretty much all the time in late game, making him a viable hard carry.

Alch has one more thing going for him. You can play position 3-4 Alch and have your BF in 15 minutes of ancient farming (from level 1). While there are a few other classes that can ancient farm effectively since level 1, none achieve quite as much with so little. Battlefury alch with 4 in Greed as position 3-4, 15 minutes in. Not the most viable, but he's basically another greedy 4-core build candidate.

Edit : Apparently DK were playing one more game! Burning was on Faceless Void, he even made a short video.
(in all honesty, that's how team DK must feel in B-god's eyes)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 10:49:05 am by Stworca »
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Rez

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #3273 on: August 11, 2013, 11:54:42 am »

Alch's biggest advantage is his ult, most definitely.  1.7 BAT to 1.0 BAT is absurdly strong, especially combined with the 750 hp (39 str of hp) and 60 ms the ult gives him.  The BAT decrease is stupidly strong; it's very similar to troll ult in effect when he has an ac and shadowblade.  The irony of alchemist is that his ult's BAT allows the hero with the strongest farming mechanic to actually need less farm to achieve the same DPS as other heroes.  And he's a safer slot 1 than any other, because he has a stun and zoning skills.

IMO, you can fix bat by decreasing firefly duration or increases the cd.  Napalm is strong, lasso is strong, flamebreak is decent, but he has 18 seconds of high damage terrain walk that allows him to scout, escape, and engage very easily.  Other heroes have blinks, jumps, even spectral dagger, but none of those allow the user to move anywhere he wants for 45% of the time.  It makes him insanely hard to gank early: if he sees you, he pops firefly and walks away, over any terrain.  If you can keep up with him, you end up fighting on the fire, which procs napalm stacks on you.  Harder and more dangerous to engage onto than tinker.  70% turn rate slow is just icing.

Void, sniper, and bara all have bashes at equal or greater chances (that use prd) than basher that deal damage in addition to the bash effect.  Basher might be too cheap for what it is, but I don't think you can call it the problem when most heroes cannot abuse it like am and alch.  The key is a low base attack time that allows a relatively small amount of ias to get you a lot more attacks per second.   People get it on naix as well, but he has a +80 ias on rank 4 rage every 17 seconds.

Magic immunity is the cat that was in the bag, so to speak.  BKB is requisite on pretty much every carry, because there are so many potent skills that don't pierce magic immunity.  However, because BKB counters the vast majority of skills, it means that supports and nukers are only effective until the bkb's start appearing.  It's relatively rare to see pipe, because people who need to live through the fight buy bkb and bkb is relatively cheap.


Ideas to extend the influence of nukers and aggressive supports:
add a white king bar that uses a single ogre club and a 1500 gold recipe.  This item makes the user immune to magical stuns, hexes, and attack slows, but does not stop movement slows, physical spells, damage, or silences.  It does not have scaling duration or cd and can be disassembled. 
Increase the recipe cost of bkb to 2600.  BKB now costs 5200 to build; much more in-line with its influence in fights.
Decrease the recipe cost of pipe by 600 gold. 

With WKB, there's a cheap response to stun-lock roaming, but also leaves the owner more vulnerable to effects that are more or less useless right now.  So, indirect buffs to veno, aa, silencer, skywrath, slardar, riki, viper and more when combined with the relative inaccessibility of bkb.  Might be an indirect buff to heroes with regular magic immunity skills, like omni, naix, and jug, and str carries in general.
BKB turns into an actual late game item, now that it doesn't cost 900 more than a freaking shadow blade.  This, as well, might be a significant indirect buff to the ridiculous farmers in the game right now, alch and am.
The price point on WKB and pipe now mean they can actually be picked up by slot 4 or 5, perhaps allowing them get off spells during the late game without standing 1000 units behind their carries.  Because it's so much harder for carries to be totally immune to all magic damage at 20 minutes, pipe is suddenly a lot more important for winning teamfights.  Decreased price also makes push strats viable again (against more than just ratdota; how about that tower score).

Almost certainly terribly flawed and full of second order effects I haven't thought out in the 10 minutes I took to come up with the ideas.  However, if you can make BKB a situational item, you've already drastically changed the shape of dota.
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umiman

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #3274 on: August 11, 2013, 12:02:38 pm »

I really don't think IF will do anything to any of the current heroes. Maybe Weaver and Visage? But Weaver is honestly the flavour of the month... Visage I can kinda see why (though I hope he doesn't).

Not sure about Alchemist either. He may have shown up in a lot of games but I don't think his winrate is that good. Maybe in [A]'s hands but that doesn't really count.

In fact we should probably just completely remove [A] from any statistics as they're a team of complete outliers.

Lastly, keep in mind in Dota 2 the heroes are not knee-jerk buffed or nerfed like some other games. If anything you might see a very minor nerf 3 months down the road or something like that.

Rez

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #3275 on: August 11, 2013, 12:12:23 pm »

I'm telling you, Sweden developed a stupidity beam!

You're 100% right about weaver being FOTM.

It's true that heroes usually aren't knee-jerk balanced, but lycan and invoker got smacked pretty hard a month or so after TI2.
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ukulele

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #3276 on: August 11, 2013, 12:22:46 pm »

IMO the only 2 heros that need a nerf are batman and visage, and i think decent options are taking the "flying view" from bat when he fireflys and making visages familiars take disables as heroes. Alchemist maybe needs a nerf too but i dont know.
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Alkhemia

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #3277 on: August 11, 2013, 12:27:48 pm »

IMO the only 2 heros that need a nerf are batman and visage, and i think decent options are taking the "flying view" from bat when he fireflys and making visages familiars take disables as heroes. Alchemist maybe needs a nerf too but i dont know.
eh if they take bat flying vision away he will be just become a trash hero he never be able to gank anything so he be completely useless.
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umiman

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #3278 on: August 11, 2013, 12:33:17 pm »

I'm telling you, Sweden developed a stupidity beam!
Heh... yeah I think so too.

Speaking of which I'm actually not that interested in watching the grand finals this time around because we all know who the winners will be. I'm actually far more interested in the loser's bracket final since I'm hoping Malaysia can beat Na'vi. If they can do that, I'd be so freaking happy.

Rez

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #3279 on: August 11, 2013, 01:04:15 pm »

IMO the only 2 heros that need a nerf are batman and visage, and i think decent options are taking the "flying view" from bat when he fireflys and making visages familiars take disables as heroes. Alchemist maybe needs a nerf too but i dont know.
eh if they take bat flying vision away he will be just become a trash hero he never be able to gank anything so he be completely useless.

IMO, it would just make it so he couldn't be a one man initiator.  There are plenty of poke skills that give the vision he needs to blink in and force drag someone out.  Mag is the only other hero with the similar initiation.  NS is the only one with similar vision and then he has to buy an agh scepter to do it.  If being unable to do the jobs of 2 or 3 different heroes makes someone a trash hero, we might have a general balance problem.
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Andrew425

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #3280 on: August 11, 2013, 01:33:12 pm »

Has anyone tried abaddon with eye of skadi yet? His curse of avernus plus the slowing effects of skadi would mean that no one is able to flee from him. Throw a sange and yasha and no hero will be able to escape from him.

Also which hero is BB?
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Alkhemia

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #3281 on: August 11, 2013, 01:33:20 pm »

Yes but that what makes batrider unique and IF does not take away from a hero uniqueness he nerf around it like to the stat gain or dmg on a spell taking the flying vision away from bat would take away what makes batrider himself so it not going to happen.
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Stworca

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #3282 on: August 11, 2013, 01:36:13 pm »

Has anyone tried abaddon with eye of skadi yet?

Are you another one of those Abba carries? Don't do that.
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Andrew425

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #3283 on: August 11, 2013, 02:16:08 pm »

I don't carry with him, I usually stock up on mostly support items. It's just that he makes an amazing chaser and can get himself out of tough situations.
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frostshotgg

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #3284 on: August 11, 2013, 03:08:38 pm »

I think the most reasonable nerf to visage would be taking 5 or 10 speed off of the familiars. The get flying which means they can still travel fairly well, but it makes them slightly easier to catch which means 200 pocketed gold if visage fucks up his micro.
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