Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Korbac]

That sounds like a normal Meepo game to me?

[Alkhemia]

Wait, please tell me that Dark Seer fix isn't removing the ability to cast ion shell on creeps. That's like the most useful aspect of Dark Seer, unlimited push and harass on your enemies!

You can still use it on creeps but not LD bear and maybe visage ult.
maybe enigma/chen/deer/brood as well not sure

[umiman]

Nah, pretty sure it's limited to the bear and Warlock's golem.

It's probably because bear + ion shell is unbelievably annoying heh. Probably as annoying as Bounty Hunter + Ion Shell. Not really sure why this change was needed, but it's not a particularly huge deal.

Also, Warlock has gotten extremely strong recently after they fixed a number of his bugs, especially now that flaming fists actually does damage. The golem now basically roflstomps anyone it sees and getting ult + refresher has actually become the best strategy for him instead of just lulzworthy. Basically each of his hits at level 6 does 200 damage... in an AOE... on top of his radiance burn... and fatal bonds... It's crazy. At level 16 he hits for about 400 damage. He can actually kill supports in 3 autoattacks.

To make it even more fun, think about exactly how much damage the demon does just by appearing. It does 100 damage when it appears, along with a 1 second stun. This means it gets a free autoattack, and that autoattack will likely be flaming fisted. So that's 500 damage in an AOE. Combined with the fatal bonds, that's an extra 100 damage. So we're at 600. Then you've got the 1 tick of radiance burn at 50 damage. So now that's 650 damage.

650 damage from that 1 second of his life!!! Queen of Pain only does 600 damage with her ult. He'll be around for another 60. Throw Magnus in there and you win every game.

Prior to this his burning fists barely worked, so it was really only his autoattack damage and radiance burn and that was kinda crappy. Now imagine 4 of those buggers running around. Actually.. you don't have to imagine. Here's a replay: http://dotabuff.com/matches/107446651

At about 40 minutes you can see Warlock essentially 1v5 the enemy team with just the ult.

[Rez]

icefrog blows at balance.  Patch after patch of no changes to broken heroes and useless heroes.  Buffs on heroes that don't need them.

warlock is still one of the weakest supports in the game.  He's less blowful, but he's still one of the most under-powered supports.  You're blatantly misrepresenting the hero.

No stun.  No on demand slow.  His skills are wildly under-powered.

Max level heal is worth a 100 gold item.  Max level heal has an efficiency of 2.7 hp per mana point.  Living armor has 7.8 hp per mana point and 80 damage block for 6 instances.  Tranquil boots have 6.8 hp/mana on just the active.  135 heal for 90 mana at level 1.  If you use as a nuke, which you shouldn't, because it's reduced by magic resistance, the opponents can deny them.  Needs to be removed and replaced with a decent skill.

Fatal bonds has little to no utility outside ult comboing.  Using it to harass pushes the lane.  Probably his only skill that doesn't need looked at though.

Upheaval is nice, except it's channeling and is on a 50 second cd.   The way it's applied means it's more or less worthless at low levels.  Which means two things:  you can't use it for ganking and you have to start putting points into for it to be useful mid-game.  Which means you can't waste points on making your heal less terrible.

His ult is on a 165 second cd.  165.  For a 1 second stun and a golem that is insta-killed by diffusal.  You can buy aghanims... to sort of counter that and spend 4200 gold on a hero that has no business getting such an inefficient item.

He's nice in a vacuum, where there aren't 20 other better supports.  Unfortunately, his lane is weak.  His gank is weak.  The only thing he does well is teamfight, and he's barely better at that than other womboers.

[umiman]

Well, looks like someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed.

[Shakerag]

Second game:  Victory!  Although, everyone on the other side just dropped  

This time I picked Witch Doctor because it said support and I figured that means I can just follow someone else and let them do all the work.

Started with the healing power.  Damn thing drains mana fast!  I think I was buddied up with some skeleton-looking dude. 

Actually didn't manage to die!  Of course, the game was pretty short...

Still think it sucks you have to run all the way back to base to grab the shit you buy.  I had some sweet mana regen gear waiting for me.

Seems like the dude I was with kept running back to be a part of these NPC packs that kept running down the path.  I guess that makes sense.  I just stuck to his ass like white on rice.

Autoattacking bitches, getting levels, lamenting lack of mana.  All in a day's work.

[Alkhemia]

you don't there a item called a courier that will bring you your stuff 

[ranter]

Nope. The thing with warlock is that every single one of his abilities is based around supporting and need someone else to help him. Fatal bonds is great and can turn teamfights, specially near roshan. We are talking about a 80% increase in damage inflicted to the enemy team if your get them all. That's pretty big.
Upheaval is a 84% slow. I repeat: 84% slow. For the entire enemy team. Unless they focus you (Bad idea if there's a blinkin and slammin antimage and two golems close and they have to go through an entire upheaval) they are fighting in a really really big disadvantage. And shadow word is crap and easily replaced by an urn. But the golems hurts A LOT, which compensates it. Even if diffusal counters it, it has limited charges. And you are building a 3300 to counter one hero.

My two cents? Skip shadow word and put all it's points in stats. The HP and mana is invaluable later in the game.

Some examples of upheaval in action
dota2://matchid=117477883&matchtime=1136
dota2://matchid=117477883&matchtime=2272

[Rez]

Limited uses.  On an item that can be upgraded for more charges and for which your golem will pay for by itself.  One hero?  Diffusal is core on more than a few heroes and is situational on almost any agi, especially if you see warlock on the other team.  I'm curious as to which one hero you were talking about.  The two most likely candidates are both perfectly able to deal with warlock.  Riki has a blink and silence, and PL has lance.

You're right, 84% is a massive slow.  Maybe it's a pro that you only need 79% to slow someone with max ms to min ms.   Either way, it's channeled, on a squishy hero, who will pretty much never get bkb.  Why not stun or silence him if he's such a threat?  There are plenty of ranged stuns and silences in the game and that's all you need to make him worthless after he pops his ult.

Depend on your enemy to not counter your warlock pick.  Depend on them to not build a pipe or bkbs or blink.  He's a hero who depends on the other team being actively bad and refusing to counter him.  Like brood, the only way he excels is when his opponents are lazy and/or bad.

So... I'll take him instead of.. who exactly?  What role does he fill?  He can't do a carry caster thing like tiny, dp, qop, or lesh can.  He has good damage... every 3 minutes. Compare him to other wombo heroes.  I was listing heroes... but it's just so monotonous.  Easily half the supports counter his slow.  Easily half of the supports have comparable wombo with utility that are off cd more than once a minute.

You think a hero is great because he has a niche.  There's a very strong argument that you're wrong.  I'm sorry if you find that offensive.  I really wish he was better, I really do love his wombo.

snip

Congrats! There're a couple of skeletony guys.  Most of the time you want your stun first.

[Bitoru]

Riki is a bad hero because he can be entirely countered by one item.

You're not a pro, you don't play pro games. If you can't win with some hero at pubs it's probably because you're bad. Warlock is a very safe support to play. His heal is very efficient, fatal bonds is borderline broken and upheaval -can- be teamfight winning if used correctly. Diffusal has a 12 second cooldown and is not core on many heroes, now if you waste 3300 gold, an inventory slot and the possibility of a better orb on your carry just to counter this one ultimate, then I think his ultimate has served its purpose in disrupting the enemy team.

Plus, a reminder that he has the 3rd highest win rate in the game.

Edit: If anyone's actually reading this, please don't take it personally. It's just a rant directed to people who play by tier lists and such.

[Rez]

double post to snark.  nice. classy.

Anyway, that was uncalled for.

There are few orbs as affordable and useful tactically as diffusal.  It's not only freedom from burning hands and immolation when warlock hits the perfect wombo, it's a purge that guarantees kills and a mana burn that amps damage while hurting the enemies ability to attack.

How is shadow word very efficient?  The math is pretty simple and it's up thread.  Take rank 1 of living armor and you're looking at a heal that is almost as efficient as rank 4 of shadow word ( 2.4 v 2.7 hp per mana point).  It's one of the least efficient heals in the game in terms of hp per mana.  It is reasonably efficient in terms of hp per time, which isn't as important in my opinion.  Salve, wand, mek, etc.. are the cures for when you desperately need a heal to save someone).

Warlock is a very bad support to play specifically because he is centered around wombo.  If you miss his wombo, you'll contribute very little to the team for the next 25 seconds at least.

Tier lists exist for a reason.  This game is imbalanced.  Unless you're going to argue that magnus and bloodseeker are both equally effective.  No doubt, matches can be won with bad heroes; yes, explicitly bad heroes.  Somehow the game not being pro means that everyone is playing badly and the heroes chosen aren't important?

[umiman]

It's about as classy as the guy who refuses to admit he's wrong even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

You know, there is this other game where there are strict tier lists and heroes are invalidated by other heroes and almost every single aspect of your "understanding" of the game applies. It's here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=84446.0

You should go there.

[Rez]

Oh how original, he called me a LoL player.  Is funny.

Considering I'm being more civil than any of you.  Take a break.  You're mad.

See, I'm providing evidence to back my claims.  And you're both saying things like "ur not pro" and "go to LoL, kid".  So.

[lemon10]

Yeah, none of you are being very civil.

Rez is right in that everyone should take a break from this argument before it gets worse.

[Alkhemia]

Or take it to PM so we don't get the topic locked