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[G-Flex]

There are multiple sites that have been tracking item drop rates over a period of years. Oddly enough, the drop rates haven't changed.

If you say the data is invalid, then that leaves the "they're changing drop rates to rip us off" argument invalid because there's no data to back it up. If you say the data IS valid, then comparing some hypothetical manipulation to an extant system that displays no manipulation is also invalid, because data indicates there is no manipulation.

Either way there is no evidence to support the idea that Blizzard has manipulated loot drop rates over a period of time.

There's also no evidence that I said they have, that they do, that they have any intention of doing so, or that the point I was responding to said any of those things either.

I didn't say they do and explicitly stated I don't even think they will. What I did say is that the idea that the company doing so in the future isn't so far-fetched as to be a "tinfoil hat conspiracy".

Seriously, man, if you're going to argue, at least argue against points people are actually making.

I just was playing an online chess game, 30 min limit.
I was confortably winning, then lost conection. It was out for 10+ minutes, then got back and I had less than 5 minutes to think the remaining game. (thankfully there was a rejoin feature)

NO FUCKING WAY IM BUYING THE SHIT WITH PERMA-ONLINE REQUIREMENT  TO PLAY FUCKING SINGLE PLAYER!

I had decided it earlier, but this just confirms it. Just too much of a kick in the face to the customers.
Nice way to avoid piracing. Thats precisely what im going to do with it now.

Odds are you only have to connect to authorize, and then you don't have to stay connected... but I wouldn't bank on that.

Also, pirating it is hardly sticking it to the man. Don't like what a company is doing? Then don't use their product. By pirating it, you're still supporting them, partly by supporting the product through use and word-of-mouth, and partly because you aren't looking for a competing product. If you don't like what they're doing, then look for developers who aren't doing it and support them, instead of acting so entitled that the best thing you can think of is "I hate this company's policies so much I'm going to use their product when they're not looking".

[Soulwynd]

One of the few times I agree with G-Flex. Don't pirate it if you don't wanna support the companies. Simply don't touch it at all.

They -do check how much their game is being downloaded with pirated means-. So they know their game is going around.

I don't want to give these always-online-DRM-for-single-player fools not even the slightest pleasure of knowing I'm downloading their game.

[Darkmere]

Until now they haven't had their incentive to. You should also link your proof if you're going to stand so tall on it.

K. Look up any boss on Wowhead. See the item loot table? the second to last column from the right is sample size, it will tell you how many times that item was dropped out of the full sample set of kills. Now, what you need to do is watch that percentage over the course of an expansion. Make a table and charts and graphs if you like, but it won't change.

There's the data for my side. Where's your evidence that Blizzard is screwing us over in a game that hasn't been released yet?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There are multiple sites that have been tracking item drop rates over a period of years. Oddly enough, the drop rates haven't changed.

If you say the data is invalid, then that leaves the "they're changing drop rates to rip us off" argument invalid because there's no data to back it up. If you say the data IS valid, then comparing some hypothetical manipulation to an extant system that displays no manipulation is also invalid, because data indicates there is no manipulation.

Either way there is no evidence to support the idea that Blizzard has manipulated loot drop rates over a period of time.

There's also no evidence that I said they have, that they do, that they have any intention of doing so, or that the point I was responding to said any of those things either.

I didn't say they do and explicitly stated I don't even think they will. What I did say is that the idea that the company doing so in the future isn't so far-fetched as to be a "tinfoil hat conspiracy".

Seriously, man, if you're going to argue, at least argue against points people are actually making.

Wasn't directed at you, sorry. I'm really lazy about quoting stuff that I'm responding to, I'll work on that.

I do wholeheartedly agree with : 

Also, pirating it is hardly sticking it to the man. Don't like what a company is doing? Then don't use their product. By pirating it, you're still supporting them, partly by supporting the product through use and word-of-mouth, and partly because you aren't looking for a competing product. If you don't like what they're doing, then look for developers who aren't doing it and support them, instead of acting so entitled that the best thing you can think of is "I hate this company's policies so much I'm going to use their product when they're not looking".

this. Forum whining about hating something then using it anyway is simple, infantile entitlement. If you hate it, grow a pair and go play something else.

[nenjin]

No, some people are just expressing opinions. Most of them are still being pretty nice about it. You can disagree all you want, but without the attitude, would be nice. Didn't you say you were done?

And you still haven't linked to any progressive study of drop tables yet.

[Hitty40]

No, some people are just expressing opinions. Most of them are still being pretty nice about it. You can disagree all you want, but without the attitude, would be nice. Didn't you say you were done?

And you still haven't linked to any progressive study of drop tables yet.

It seems you don't read well.

There's also no evidence that I said they have, that they do, that they have any intention of doing so, or that the point I was responding to said any of those things either.

I didn't say they do and explicitly stated I don't even think they will.

[nenjin]

The drop tables for a game that doesn't have a legalized payment system for loot isn't relative. If they changed loot drops at all in WoW, it's relative to a game issue. This is new ground.

[ductape]

heres somethig I do know about pirating software, a certain amount of it is actually good for any piece of software. Its a benchmark to its success and furthermore in some cases, can actually establish that piece of software as the definitive article among it competition.

How do I know this? Well I live and grew up in the birthplace of it all. I went to High School in Cupertino, home of Apple. Im 40 now, and when I was a kid, we still had monochrome monitors and dot matrix printers and the junior high school i went to had one of the first computer labs in the country because all the computers were donated by Apple. Long story short, many of my friends were self taught programmers who are now "important people" of big and small software companies.

A good friend works at Adobe in San Francisco. Photoshop is reputed to be the most pirated piece of software in history. Adobe thinks this is good. Guess why.

[Darkmere]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The drop tables for a game that doesn't have a legalized payment system for loot isn't relative. If they changed loot drops at all in WoW, it's relative to a game issue. This is new ground.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You're saying a company who can't respond to GM tickets in their flagship title in anything less than 12 hours for ridiculously simple issues, is going to somehow find enough staff to fine-tune the drop rate for every item, every player, every game?

I'm sorry, but the cash AH for this game will never generate even close to the subscription income from WoW. Nor will manipulating it be the mission of some CIA-trained shadowy interns who are watching you and hitting a "drop" button over the cracked sash entry.

The guys who created a loot formula that's mimic'd by half the RPG market at least? Who have been fine tuning the mathematics behind them in WoW for close to what, 6+ years now? Who have had years of learning time based on the 3rd party markets they've been watching carefully?

It's not about having someone manage each player account. It's about having a loot algorithm that can easily be changed globally based on market outcomes. Has the price of epic items in the last month edged up 25%, to let's say, $100 on average with the right stats? What happens if they tweak the drop formula for epics up, or down, just to see the impact on the market? There's the potential for a level of tampering that isn't about providing a better game, that's driven by outside forces. It's why I've always been leery of RL financials being wedded to game play.

And given the success of WoW, those transactions will add up, when there are 20 to 30 million people as potential buyers and sellers. Blizzard will take IIRC 3 cuts from your sale from posting to receiving your money. 3 cuts, x1 million sales, at even 50 cents profit a sale, per month, equals serious cash, that will probably only continue to grow larger compared to WoW's sub rates as WoW players finally quit playing in lieu of the new Blizzard mini-MMO.

Which is it? Wow's loot system has been refined over the years, or it doesn't matter? I'm not mentioning that you somehow imagine 2-3X more people will play D3 than have played wow.

You wanted proof, I gave you means. No, I don't have the drop tables handy for irrelevant content in a game I haven't played in years, but I did give you the means to examine it yourself in current form. You still haven't offered anything but vague accusations of greed and corruption regarding a system that doesn't even exist yet.

I was, in fact, done, until someone replied to my post and I clarified.

Either way, I disagree with reactionary bile regarding features that don't even exist yet. It's quite possible the RMT AH is a total flop and no-one uses it. It's also possible that somehow it creates a race of supermen-barbarians fueled by money and vengeance. I'd be willing to bet it's not that close to either extreme.

I'll be honest, I followed a lot of the development of this game on diii.net so I've heard these arguments before in some form. That contributes to my bad mood, but it gets worse when disingenuous statements like "removed talent trees!" get thrown around and taken as "no talents!", feeding a pointless fire.

I shall endeavor to turn the asshole dial down a notch or two.

[nenjin]

I said it's been refined. It's been tuned. It's a system they understand very well and it's probably down to a very concise formula that accounts for a lot of factors to give them an end result they want.

When that kind of expertise is applied to money-market system, that they control, I do get suspicious. Is it greed and corruption to manipulate that system? Probably not. But am I entitled to find it kind of distasteful should it happen? I think so.

I'm not mentioning that you somehow imagine 2-3X more people will play D3 than have played wow.

http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php?serverid=-1&factionid=-1&minlevel=10&maxlevel=85&servertypeid=-1

Almost 4 million, right now, only counting characters over level 10 and been online in the last 30 days. Call it 3 million for dupe accounts. My numbers may be high but over the lifespan of WoW I'm sure easily 15 million have played it one point. In 8 years when D4 comes out, you do the math. I think will easily see that many sales in that time span.

It's quite possible the RMT AH is a total flop and no-one uses it. It's also possible that somehow it creates a race of supermen-barbarians fueled by money and vengeance. I'd be willing to bet it's not that close to either extreme.

Cute. I think you're overlooking that it makes perfectly good business sense for them to do so though. It's their world, they can manipulate it how they want. I'm still asking myself to what degree I'm willing to tolerate it should it happen. Because I don't want to buy into the AH and wouldn't, but now it kinda feels like just buying the game is affirming "it's what the players want." My like of the game is kinda held hostage by the stuff I don't like, and my endorsement of the game is a tacit approval of their methods. Why? Because they took away any chance for it to be otherwise.

I'll be honest, I followed a lot of the development of this game on diii.net so I've heard these arguments before in some form. That contributes to my bad mood, but it gets worse when disingenuous statements like "removed talent trees!" get thrown around and taken as "no talents!", feeding a pointless fire.

I was on the D3 forums pretty much the week it announced. This is the first semi-real conversation I've had about the game since the last big announcement about the Bnet features. Guess what? That was full of a lot of negative results in terms of player privacy and how much control Blizzard wants to have too. There's been a trend of disappointments for a lot of fans of D3, and many are wondering honestly how bad it could get. Which is funny because most of this has little to do with the game itself, and more about all the extraneous BS that surrounds it.

[Shadowlord]

Cute. I think you're overlooking that it makes perfectly good business sense for them to do so though. It's their world, they can manipulate it how they want.

But that's like saying "It would make perfectly good business sense for Valve to turn down the drop rate of items that are being bought at high rates in the TF2 item store" and then expecting that because you logic'd it, they'll actually do it, or will have already been doing it.

[nenjin]

Or turn them up. Whatever makes the most financial sense based on how people are spending. Point is, it's not something I particularly asked for or wanted. Kind of why I don't play TF2 either.

[ChairmanPoo]

You know what, this whole argument is stupid.

We've gone from what was moderately depressing (No one play a game I won't play, because I said so!), to outright tinfoil hat conspiracies.

I'm stepping aside until the thread dies or someone rational makes a valid point about something. Good day.

What tinfoil hat conspiracies?

That Blizzard would adjust droprates so they could gain more money.

I don't think it's a tinfoil hat conspiracy as it is common sense. Why wouldn't they do such a thing? Make it subtle enough and people wont even notice.

[Stworca]

Is there anyone who wanted to buy Diablo III, but will not, because it's going to be mod-less and online only..?

I bet most of the people 'ere who shout their anti Blizzard slogans were skeptical about the game before they read the news.
I for one won't buy Diablo 3, but i never was going to. I never liked Diablo 2 to begin with.

Also : After the success of WoW, wasn't it obvious that D3 will be nigh-MMO? You could tell that the second They announced "tactical" boss encounters. What did you expect? That you'll control many characters at once?

With this being said, regarding auctions.. it's a sad day, to see Blizzard slowly turn into EA.

[webadict]

Is there anyone who wanted to buy Diablo III, but will not, because it's going to be mod-less and online only..?

I bet most of the people 'ere who shout their anti Blizzard slogans were skeptical about the game before they read the news.
I for one won't buy Diablo 3, but i never was going to. I never liked Diablo 2 to begin with.

Also : After the success of WoW, wasn't it obvious that D3 will be nigh-MMO? You could tell that the second They announced "tactical" boss encounters. What did you expect? That you'll control many characters at once?

With this being said, regarding auctions.. it's a sad day, to see Blizzard slowly turn into EA.

Um, me?

I think it WILL be a good game, but I don't want the extra nonsense they put into the game.

[Shootandrun]

I'm gonna buy Diablo 3 anyway. My main computer is always connected to the internet and my portable is so shitty I never played games on it anyways (and it will always be shitty since all my money goes into the main one) so the DRM is'nt a problem. The auction house does'nt bother me either, I won't use it and I never cared for such things.

The new skill system actually sounds good, since the one in Diablo 2 was really bad (in my opinion). Now, you can improve all your spells in many different ways, and choose which spells you are using at any time.