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[cameron]

the water and magma at least can be changed via the init file to blue and red numbers which represent their height from 1-7

[Niccolo]

Hi,
Your amazement amuses me.  Computers are one of the biggest advances for the blind community since Braille was invented, and games are just one aspect of that whole picture.  It's easy for mainstream companies to ignore us, but indie titles like DF are another matter.

Most of our amazement comes from the simple fact that we have working eyes. We're so used to the idea of relying on our eyes to interpret things for us that the idea of not using our eyes is somewhere close to unfathomable.

And since the primary method of interacting with a computer for us is by, well, looking at the screen, it's just a little amazing to think that, hey, there's this guy who can't see, yet can read perfectly well on a computer and we wouldn't have even noticed the difference if you hadn't told us.

I hope I'm not coming across as insensitive - that is far from my intention. People who aren't blind are just incredibly reliant on our eyes that we find it pretty awesome to see other ways of, well, looking at a situation (I swear I'm not making a pun xD).

[kaypy]

Ok, so I got speakup running, and abused my ears for a bit.

One thing I note is that it seems that speakup only runs on the direct ttys and not in any windowed terminal. I had been hoping to bolt things onto the side of Dwarf Fortress via the window manager, which I will need to rethink...

Speakup seems to do OK on look mode, except that the text in the look description is often repetative, and speakup doesn't like to repeat itself. So, for example, if you are scanning across the landscape and go over a tree, it will mention the tree, but wont mention that the next tile is empty ground again. And wont mention trees again for a bit. There's probably a 'say it all again' hotkey, but then you will get all the title bar gumf.

Here I was hoping there was a way to convince speakup that some subportion of the screen was the interesting bit, and to read it back again while ignoring the rest.

[zkline]

Hi,
Niccolo, you aren't insensitive in the least.  I can't really imagine what it's like to use eyes, even though I know you do so.  No offense taken.
Kaypy, glad you got Speakup working.  There is actually a way to at least set up that important region of the screen.  I think you can use the "Window" functionality to do that, with Speakup-f2 through f4.  By the way, speakup-f1 will get you into help mode.  Sorry I neglected to mention its tty-only nature. 
Hope this helps,
Zack.

[DrPoo]

It must be horrible to be blind, atleast if you have ever had sight. I can kind of guess that it isnt nearly that horrible for a born blind person, i was born without any ability to read body language. I cannot tell an angry person from a smiling at times.. and i dont think its very bad, i mean i do not feel harmed by it.

The only thing i could think would be some kind of sound system, so you can atleast hear when that monkey is stealing all your pig tail clothes..

[Jurph]

Here I was hoping there was a way to convince speakup that some subportion of the screen was the interesting bit, and to read it back again while ignoring the rest.

A lot of the screen-plotters like Stonesense read DFHack info in order to populate each tile... so why not read out the DFHack info for a tile into a pseudo-TTY server?  DFVeinDig and other utilities have cursor awareness and could tell you the XYZ coordinates of your cursor. 

Your idea for autodetecting special cases is interesting... you could fairly easily scan the map and come up with regions of interest:

• Bodies of water
• Transitions from surface-to-underground
• Transitions from cavern to tunnels
• Hotkeyed points

At which point you could report proximity to each area, or you could report what's going on at each spot, like so:
"SURFACE REPORT.  Bomrek Zifoltubor went aboveground to cut wood.  Urist Hazmat is hunting a deer at 5,41, 113.  Bomrek Zifoltubor chopped wood at 15, 10, 112.  Bomrek Zifoltubor hauled wood to 22,45,101."

The first report would be triggered by Bomrek passing from the underground to the aboveground zone; the transition would check his labor to report his job, and ... not sure how it would figure out where he actually chopped the wood.  The second would be triggered by the creation of a combat report.  Urist has the Hunting Labor *and* generated a hunting report *and* the other creature in the report is a deer; read out the deer's grid location.  The third and fourth readouts would be similar to the first... which is to say I don't know exactly what you would have to read, but it's in the realm of possibility.

It almost seems like the tool we need is a Verbose Game Log dumped to a relational DB; then the TTY could connect to the DB and read out events that match the frame of reference.  This seems... extraordinarily ambitious. Megaproject-type stuff.  It may be beyond the scope of what we can accomplish. TTYing into a window that refreshes the existing gamelog.txt might be an easy hack in the short run.

[zkline]

Hi Jurph,
AMbitious is definitely the right word for what you're suggesting.  I can't comment on its feasibility, but I will say that if even a little of what you propose could happen, it would be great.  I've not played DF enough to know how detailed the logs are at the moment, nor how much information a tool could extract, but it's a nice fantasy. 
Best,
Zack.

[DrPoo]

zkline? how do you read this forum? I mean, i guess it would be pretty annoying to listen to names of avatars, signatures, quotes, forum announcements, etc. You must be a very patient person.

[DrKillPatient]

If the screen reader is made to take input from DFhack for auto-reading, perhaps you can make it exclude commas and periods. That would cut out the ground, and leave only items, buildings and creatures as far as I know.

[turboferret]

can you pipe df output when using textmode in linux?

[zkline]

Hi,
Turboferret, I'm not sure you can, unfortunately.  DF uses Curses to draw its text mode, and I've never tried piping the output of a curses-based program before.  If it used standard i/o that would be different, of course.
DrKillPatient, that's an idea, though one more suited to Jurph's ambitious database proposal than anything else I think.  For now, ground tiles will probably have to stay.  Keeping track of and excluding those dynamically would be a nightmare…
Best,
Zack.

[Jurph]

Hi Jurph,
AMbitious is definitely the right word for what you're suggesting.  I can't comment on its feasibility, but I will say that if even a little of what you propose could happen, it would be great.  I've not played DF enough to know how detailed the logs are at the moment, nor how much information a tool could extract, but it's a nice fantasy. 
Best,
Zack.

I'm busy tonight, but later this week I'll post a link to a game log file and you can pipe it into your reader.  I suspect that it will be missing tons of detail, but at the same time I think it will be an interesting reality check for you.  If the game log has most of the details you're interested in, then a good first step would be a script that reads out events from the gamelog as they occur.  I suspect most of this functionality already exists in SoundSense.

[zkline]

Hi Jurph,
I'm looking forward to seeing your game log.  Mine are always nearly empty.  Is there a setting to increase the verbosity of its messages?
Best,
Zack.

[Jurph]

Alright, zack.  Find below the output from a single season of a fortress. I've got about 50 dwarves and there is some trading and a goblin invasion happening, so all in all, a pretty normal autumn.  I've hidden it in a spoiler tag and a code tag in order to make it easy to copy-and-paste to a text file.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

Autumn has come.
An animal has grown to become a Stray Yak Cow.
Mebzuth Akrulbomrek has created a masterpiece!
Stodir Alathmedtob, expedition leader cancels Store Owned Item: Item inaccessible.
Kib Musodcog, Bone Carver cancels Make Totem: Needs unrotten totemable body part.
Stodir Alathmedtob, expedition leader cancels Store Owned Item: Item inaccessible.
It has started raining.
Stodir Alathmedtob, expedition leader cancels Store Owned Item: Item inaccessible.
`Bladewright' Atheloltar has become a Metalsmith.
Stodir Alathmedtob, expedition leader cancels Store Owned Item: Item inaccessible.
Stodir Alathmedtob, expedition leader cancels Store Owned Item: Item inaccessible.
Stodir Alathmedtob, expedition leader cancels Store Owned Item: Item inaccessible.
Stodir Alathmedtob, expedition leader cancels Store Owned Item: Item inaccessible.
x2
An animal has grown to become a Stray Dog.
Mosus Tithlethlokum has become a Clothier.
Stodir Alathmedtob, expedition leader cancels Store Owned Item: Item inaccessible.
Stodir Alathmedtob, expedition leader cancels Store Owned Item: Item inaccessible.
Mosus Tithlethlokum, Clothier cancels Construct cloth Bag: Needs 10000 plant cloth.
Stodir Alathmedtob, expedition leader cancels Store Owned Item: Item inaccessible.
`Bladewright' Atheloltar has created a masterpiece!
Stodir Alathmedtob, expedition leader cancels Store Owned Item: Item inaccessible.
x2
Sibrek Erithducim has created a masterpiece!
Udib Libashluzat, Bone Carver cancels Make horn Crafts: Needs unrotten horn body part.
The weather has cleared.
Obok Kolbecor has become a Metalcrafter.
Stodir Alathmedtob, expedition leader cancels Store Owned Item: Item inaccessible.
Sibrek Erithducim has created a masterpiece!
Udib Libashluzat has created a masterpiece!
Stodir Alathmedtob, expedition leader cancels Store Owned Item: Item inaccessible.
Udib Libashluzat has created a masterpiece!
Sibrek Erithducim has created a masterpiece!
Atir Sazirdegel, Unskilled cancels Melt a Metal Object: Needs melt-designated item.
Stodir Alathmedtob, expedition leader cancels Store Owned Item: Item inaccessible.
Sibrek Erithducim has created a masterpiece!
Sibrek Erithducim has created a masterpiece!
Sibrek Erithducim has created a masterpiece!
x2
Sibrek Erithducim has created a masterpiece!
Sibrek Erithducim, Cook cancels Prepare Lavish Meal: Needs unrotten cookable solid item.
You have struck green tourmaline!
The merchants from Dur Fel will be leaving soon.
You have struck lignite!
You have struck green tourmaline!
You have struck limonite!
You have struck green tourmaline!
You have struck jasper opal!
You have struck lignite!
Udib Libashluzat has created a masterpiece!
You have struck smoky quartz!
Udib Libashluzat has created a masterpiece!
The Surgeon Sakzul Kolrit has organized a party at Well.
The merchants from Dur Fel have embarked on their journey.
Udib Libashluzat has created a masterpiece!
Edem Idgamil, Carpenter cancels Melt a Metal Object: Needs melt-designated item.
Stray war Dog (Tame) has given birth to puppies.
Some migrants have arrived.
It has started raining.
Kib Musodcog has created a masterpiece!
Stray Yak Cow (Tame) has given birth to a yak calf.
The Diagnoser Kel Monanglolor has organized a party at Well.
Kib Musodcog, Bone Carver cancels Make bone bolts: Needs unrotten bone body part.
The weather has cleared.
Catten Orrunral, Fish Dissector cancels Fill Pond: Need empty bucket.
Catten Orrunral, Fish Dissector cancels Fill Pond: Need empty bucket.
Mosus Tithlethlokum, Clothier cancels Dye Thread: Needs 15000 collected dyeable thread.
Catten Orrunral, Fish Dissector cancels Fill Pond: Need empty bucket.
`Sawdust' Kibilush has created a masterpiece!
Catten Orrunral, Fish Dissector cancels Fill Pond: Need empty bucket.
`Sawdust' Kibilush has created a masterpiece!
Catten Orrunral, Fish Dissector cancels Fill Pond: Need empty bucket.
Catten Orrunral, Fish Dissector cancels Fill Pond: Need empty bucket.
Stodir Alathmedtob, expedition leader cancels Mill Plants: Needs empty bag.
Lorbam Semormorul, Engraver cancels Fill Pond: Need empty bucket.
Lorbam Semormorul, Engraver cancels Fill Pond: Need empty bucket.
Lorbam Semormorul, Engraver cancels Fill Pond: Need empty bucket.
Lorbam Semormorul, Engraver cancels Fill Pond: Need empty bucket.
Lorbam Semormorul, Engraver cancels Fill Pond: Need empty bucket.
Catten Tashemlor has grown to become a Nanny Goat.
Lorbam Semormorul, Engraver cancels Fill Pond: Need empty bucket.
An animal has grown to become a Stray Yak Cow.
Mosus Tithlethlokum, Clothier cancels Dye Cloth: Needs 10000 dyeable cloth.
Stodir Alathmedtob has become a expedition leader.
Eral Ethabnomal has become a Farmer.
Atir Sazirdegel, Unskilled cancels Store Item in Barrel: Job item misplaced.
Zuglar Tileshatir has become a Herbalist.
Edem Idgamil, Carpenter cancels Load Cage Trap: Needs empty cage.
Dakost Sibrekarzes, Woodcutter cancels Load Cage Trap: Needs empty cage.
The Stoneworker Dodok Lenodlor has organized a party at Well.
Edem Idgamil, Carpenter cancels Load Cage Trap: Needs empty cage.
Mosus Tithlethlokum, Clothier cancels Load Cage Trap: Needs empty cage.
Dakost Sibrekarzes, Woodcutter cancels Load Cage Trap: Needs empty cage.
Stodir Alathmedtob, expedition leader cancels Load Cage Trap: Needs empty cage.
Tobul Osusturdim, Miner cancels Load Cage Trap: Needs empty cage.
Momuz Ralamid, Miner cancels Load Cage Trap: Needs empty cage.
Deduk Shigossigun has created a masterpiece!
Momuz Ralamid, Miner cancels Load Cage Trap: Needs empty cage.
Edem Idgamil, Carpenter cancels Load Cage Trap: Needs empty cage.
Momuz Ralamid, Miner cancels Load Cage Trap: Needs empty cage.
Momuz Ralamid, Miner cancels Load Cage Trap: Needs empty cage.
Edem Idgamil, Carpenter cancels Load Cage Trap: Needs empty cage.
Edem Idgamil, Carpenter cancels Load Cage Trap: Needs empty cage.
x2
Stodir Alathmedtob, expedition leader cancels Load Cage Trap: Needs empty cage.
Deduk Shigossigun has created a masterpiece!
Dakost Rureshtan has grown to become a Ram.
Stodir Alathmedtob, expedition leader cancels Load Cage Trap: Needs empty cage.
Momuz Ralamid, Miner cancels Load Cage Trap: Needs empty cage.
x2
Mosus Tithlethlokum, Clothier cancels Load Cage Trap: Needs empty cage.
Stodir Febanan, Ghostly Miner has risen and is haunting the fortress!
`Sawdust' Kibilush has created a masterpiece!
`Sawdust' Kibilush has created a masterpiece!
`Sawdust' Kibilush has created a masterpiece!
`Sawdust' Kibilush has created a masterpiece!
`Sawdust' Kibilush has created a masterpiece!
`Sawdust' Kibilush has created a masterpiece!
`Sawdust' Kibilush has created a masterpiece!
`Sawdust' Kibilush has created a masterpiece!
`Sawdust' Kibilush has created a masterpiece!
The outpost liaison As Likotlular from Mishakkol has arrived.
A caravan from Mishakkol has arrived.
`Sawdust' Kibilush has created a masterpiece!
Merchants have arrived and are unloading their goods.
`Sawdust' Kibilush has created a masterpiece!
`Sawdust' Kibilush has created a masterpiece!
`Sawdust' Kibilush has created a masterpiece!
Oddom Oltarudos has created a masterpiece!
The Stray Yak Cow (Tame) has starved to death.
Stodir Febanan, Ghostly Miner has been put to rest.
Oddom Oltarudos has created a masterpiece!
Snatcher!  Protect the children!
Dakost Sibrekarzes, Woodcutter cancels Fill Pond: Interrupted by Goblin Master Thief.
Snatcher!  Protect the children!
The Goblin Thief attacks The Animal Trainer but She rolls away!
Nomal Rigothgongith, Animal Trainer cancels Fill Pond: Interrupted by Goblin Thief.
The Goblin Thief stabs The Animal Trainer in the right foot with her ({large copper dagger}), tearing the muscle through the (giant cave spider silk shoe)!
An artery has been opened by the attack!
The Animal Trainer punches The Goblin Thief in the lower body with her left hand, bruising the muscle and bruising the guts through the ({troll fur cloak})!
The Goblin Thief stabs The Animal Trainer in the right lower arm with her ({large copper dagger}), tearing the muscle through the (giant cave spider silk cloak)!
Dakost Sibrekarzes, Woodcutter cancels Fill Pond: Interrupted by Goblin Thief.
The Woodcutter charges at The Goblin Thief!
The Woodcutter strikes at The Goblin Thief but the shot is parried!
The Woodcutter collides with The Goblin Thief!
The Goblin Thief is knocked over!
The Woodcutter slaps The Goblin Thief in the right upper arm with the flat of her *iron battle axe*, bruising the bone through the ({troll fur cloak})!
The Goblin Thief loses hold of the ({giant toad leather right glove}).
The Goblin Thief loses hold of the ({troll fur bag}).
The Woodcutter hacks The Goblin Thief in the right hand with her *iron battle axe* and the severed part sails off in an arc!
The Woodcutter hacks The Goblin Thief in the left upper arm with her *iron battle axe*, tearing apart the muscle through the ({troll fur cloak})!
A sensory nerve has been severed!
The *iron battle axe* has lodged firmly in the wound!
The Woodcutter twists the embedded *iron battle axe* around in The Goblin Thief's left upper arm!
The Woodcutter hacks The Goblin Thief in the lower body with her *iron battle axe*, tearing apart the muscle through the ({troll fur cloak}) and spilling her filthy guts!
The *iron battle axe* has lodged firmly in the wound!
The Woodcutter twists the embedded *iron battle axe* around in The Goblin Thief's lower body!
The Woodcutter hacks The Goblin Thief in the right upper arm with her *iron battle axe* and the severed part sails off in an arc!
The Woodcutter hacks The Goblin Thief in the lower body with her *iron battle axe*, tearing apart the muscle through the ({troll fur cloak})!
An artery has been opened by the attack!
The *iron battle axe* has lodged firmly in the wound!
The Woodcutter twists the embedded *iron battle axe* around in The Goblin Thief's lower body!
The Goblin Thief loses hold of the ({deer leather shoe}).
The Goblin Thief loses hold of the ({troll fur sock}).
The Goblin Thief loses hold of the ({deer leather shoe}).
The Goblin Thief loses hold of the ({troll fur sock}).
The Goblin Thief loses hold of the ({troll fur trousers}).
The Goblin Thief loses hold of the ({troll fur loincloth}).
The Woodcutter hacks The Goblin Thief in the lower body with her *iron battle axe* and the severed part sails off in an arc!
Snatcher!  Protect the children!
The Goblin Master Thief slashes The Woodcutter in the left upper leg with his ({large silver dagger}), but the attack is deflected by The Woodcutter's (giant cave spider silk cloak)!
Dakost Sibrekarzes, Woodcutter cancels Recover Wounded: Interrupted by Goblin Master Thief.
Kib Musodcog, Bone Carver cancels Store Item in Stockpile: Interrupted by Goblin Master Thief.
`Sawdust' Kibilush has created a masterpiece!
Zuglar Tileshatir, Herbalist cancels Store Item in Stockpile: Interrupted by Goblin Master Thief.
Oddom Oltarudos, Carpenter cancels Store Item in Stockpile: Interrupted by Goblin Master Thief.
`Bladewright' Atheloltar, Metalsmith cancels Store Item in Stockpile: Interrupted by Goblin Master Thief.
Meng Keskallitast, Hunter cancels Store Item in Stockpile: Interrupted by Goblin Master Thief.
`Sawdust' Kibilush has created a masterpiece!
Logem Enamonul, Herbalist cancels Store Item in Stockpile: Interrupted by Goblin Master Thief.
`Sawdust' Kibilush has created a masterpiece!
Obok Kolbecor has become a Metalsmith.
Oddom Oltarudos has created a masterpiece!
Snatcher!  Protect the children!
Logem Enamonul, Herbalist cancels Fill Pond: Inappropriate building.
An ambush!  Curse them!
The flying ({silver arrow}) strikes The Stray Yak Calf in the upper body, tearing the muscle and chipping the middle spine's bone!
A tendon in the middle spine has been torn!
`Sawdust' Kibilush has created a masterpiece!
The Stray Yak Calf gives in to pain.
The Stray Yak Calf falls over.
The Goblin Axeman hacks The Stray Yak Calf in the head with his ({silver battle axe}), tearing apart the muscle, fracturing the skull!
A tendon in the skull has been torn!
The Goblin Axeman hacks The Stray Yak Calf in the head with his ({silver battle axe}), tearing apart the muscle!
An artery has been opened by the attack!
A tendon in the upper spine has been torn!
The Goblin Axeman stabs The Stray Yak Calf in the head with her ({iron halberd}), tearing apart the muscle, shattering the skull and tearing the brain!
An artery has been opened by the attack!
A tendon in the skull has been torn!
The Stray Yak Calf (Tame) has been struck down.
Vabok Bekarrigoth, Weaponsmith cancels Store Item in Stockpile: Interrupted by Goblin Axeman.
Mosus Tithlethlokum, Clothier cancels Store Item in Stockpile: Interrupted by Goblin Axeman.
Tobul Osusturdim, Miner cancels Store Item in Stockpile: Job item misplaced.
Dishmab Zimeshiden, Woodworker cancels Make wooden Cage: Needs logs.
The Badger Boar has become enraged!
Badger Boar is no longer enraged.
The Badger Sow has become enraged!
The Badger Sow has become enraged!
The Badger Sow misses The Stray Yak Calf!
Badger Sow is no longer enraged.
The Badger Sow bites The Stray Yak Calf in the left front hoof, but the attack glances away!
The Badger Sow bites The Stray Yak Calf in the lower body, tearing the fat!
The Badger Sow latches on firmly!
The Stray Yak Calf breaks the grip of The Badger Sow's tooth on The Stray Yak Calf's lower body.
The Stray Yak Calf charges at The Badger Sow!
The Stray Yak Calf kicks The Badger Sow in the tail with her left rear hoof, shattering the bone!
The Stray Yak Calf collides with The Badger Sow!
The Badger Sow is knocked over!
The Stray Yak Calf gores The Badger Sow in the upper body with her left horn, bruising the muscle and bruising the right lung!
The Badger Sow is having trouble breathing!
The Stray Yak Calf kicks The Badger Sow in the left front leg with her left front hoof, shattering the bone!
The Badger Sow stands up.
The Stray Yak Calf charges at The Badger Sow!
The Stray Yak Calf kicks The Badger Sow in the right front paw with her right front hoof, shattering the bone!
The Stray Yak Calf collides with The Badger Sow!
The Badger Sow is knocked over!
The Badger Sow gives in to pain.
The Stray Yak Calf kicks The Badger Sow in the head with her right rear hoof, bruising the muscle and tearing apart the upper spine's nervous tissue!
Badger Sow is no longer enraged.
The flying ({silver arrow}) strikes The Stray war Dog in the left rear leg, chipping the bone!
A tendon has been torn!
The Stray war Dog gives in to pain.
The Stray war Dog falls over.
The Goblin Bowman is caught in a pool of lava!
The Goblin Bowman is caught in a pool of lava!
The Goblin Bowman is caught in a pool of lava!
The Goblin Bowman is caught in a pool of lava!
The Goblin Bowman is caught in a pool of lava!
The Goblin Bowman is caught in a pool of lava!
The Goblin Bowman is caught in a pool of lava!
The Goblin Bowman is caught in a pool of lava!
The Goblin Bowman is caught in a pool of lava!
The Goblin Bowman is caught in a pool of lava!
The Goblin Bowman is caught in a pool of lava!
The Goblin Bowman is caught in a pool of lava!
The Goblin Bowman stands up.
The Goblin Bowman is caught in a pool of lava!
The Stray war Dog regains consciousness.
The Badger Sow regains consciousness.
The Stray war Dog stands up.
The Stray war Dog is no longer stunned.
A masterwork of Deduk Shigossigun has been lost!
x2
A masterwork of Oddom Oltarudos has been lost!
The Stray war Dog gives in to pain.
The Stray war Dog falls over.
Mebzuth Akrulbomrek, Farmer cancels Melt a Metal Object: Needs melt-designated item.
The Goblin Axeman stabs The Stray Yak Calf in the left front hoof with her ({iron halberd}), fracturing it!
The Goblin Axeman stabs The Stray Yak Calf in the left rear leg with her ({iron halberd}), fracturing the bone!
An artery has been opened by the attack and a tendon has been torn!
The Stray Yak Calf gives in to pain.
The Stray Yak Calf falls over.
The Goblin Axeman slashes The Stray Yak Calf in the head with her ({iron halberd}) and the severed part sails off in an arc!
The Stray Yak Calf (Tame) has been struck down.
Winter is upon you.


I noticed here that the number of identical or nearly-identical reports is huge... so if there were a parsing program, we'd probably want to teach it how to drop most of these.  As for verbosity, you can make adjustments to Announcements.txt in the INIT folder in order to determine the behavior that you see.

[zkline]

Hi Jurph and all,
THis is quite nice indeed.  THank you.  I see what you mean about identical messages, they could get annoying rather quickly.  I do notice that occasionally the game seems to recognize that there are identical ones and indicates so, but it seems inconsistent.  Of course, location information is missing from these, which I'd have to find somehow.
The combat log was fun to read, and quite gruesome in places.  Overall, I think this provides a lot of very good info, and is probably a great place to start. 
Thanks for posting.
Best,
Zack.