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[zkline]

Hi,
Indeed, that's an idea.  Are there limits on minimum and maximum embark sizes?  I'm a bit unclear on how that works, exactly.  There's an "edge" to the accessible map, I assume?
Best and thanks,
Zack.

[cameron]

when you are choosing an embark location from the world you have to pick a rectangular playing area which defines the accessible map, you cannot see beyond this edge but things will come in from it.

The default size I think is 4x4 (the numbers refer to the number of map tiles which make up the embark) but this can be reduced to 2x2 or increased to whatever your computer can handle, the site could even be reduced to 1x1 with mods before but i don't know if that still works.

A 2x2 embark will give you ~96 tiles each way, the size and proportions of the tiles will depend on the tile-set you use, the default windowed tile-set has each tile at 8 by 12 pixels, but you can get smaller larger and squarer tile-sets if you so choose

[DrKillPatient]

when you are choosing an embark location from the world you have to pick a rectangular playing area which defines the accessible map, you cannot see beyond this edge but things will come in from it.

The default size I think is 4x4 (the numbers refer to the number of map tiles which make up the embark) but this can be reduced to 2x2 or increased to whatever your computer can handle, the site could even be reduced to 1x1 with mods before but i don't know if that still works.

A 2x2 embark will give you ~96 tiles each way, the size and proportions of the tiles will depend on the tile-set you use, the default windowed tile-set has each tile at 8 by 12 pixels, but you can get smaller larger and squarer tile-sets if you so choose

Tile size/proportions don't really matter because when it's read in text, the map is read as a grid, even if it's taller than it is wide visually, since it's still, for example, 96 by 96. In any case, he'll be running it in text mode, and tilesets won't apply. Minimum embark size is 2 by 2, although with the Nano-Fortress tool you can do 1 by 1. The default is 4 by 4, and anything much larger will lag very early on. Technically the maximum size is 16 by 16, but DF will crash at that size usually.

You could maybe reduce the size of the window. That way, you 'see' less tiles at once, and it might be easier to visualize the map. In fact, if it's small enough, you might be able to avoid being confused by the horizontal reset because you could memorize what items are where. If it's 5 by 5, for example, you only need to keep track of a maximum of 25 tiles. Only some coordinates will be of interest, of course, so the number will probably be much lower with the exception of things like large-scale battles, in which case you can pause and go frame-by-frame. Maybe the grid size function in init.txt would do something... although I don't know if it affects the text-only version.

EDIT: I just tried the text-only version on Linux and attempted to resize the window-- no luck, it segfaults. The grid can't be set smaller than the default 80 by 25 either. By the way, the default window is 23 by 23 squares for the main screen and map, and the menu is 34 squares across, if that info helps you at all.

EDIT2: Does anyone know if you could customize DF with a graphics set or something so the Unicode tiles are something else? The creatures would be fairly simple with some raw-modding, but the terrain would be impossible I think. The languages can be find-and-replace'd for the accented characters.

[zkline]

Hi ALl,
DrKillPatient, you've hit on an interesting point here.  The Linux version of DF seems, on the whole, the easiest for me to use, seeing as it both works in tex mode and has a screen reader which is at least capable of horizontal tracking.  My main problem with it is the Unicode characters, especially for dwarves, though I gather they're used for other things as well.
In traditional rogue likes, an @ sign symbolizes the main character's position.  How hard would it be to rework the DF map symbols to use pure ascii?  If we accept that I'm already going to have issues with dwarven identification anyway, ambiguity isn't a big problem.  The Look command seems ideal for sorting out confusion.  We have tons of brackets, braces, and oddball punctuation marks to play with, and of course the possibility of reusing one mark for multiple items or for item categories, as in NetHack.  Is this kind of thing doable?
I imagine reworking DF's maps to use standard ASCII is an easier task than adding Unicode support to a Linux kernel-level screen reader. 
Thoughts?
Best,
Zack.

[kaypy]

During the actual game, it may be better to point the screen reader at the looK menu output. It would seem to me that that would get around the unicode issues, overloaded character issues, colour issues, etc. If the screen reader can be pointed at the appropriate chunk of the screen to read the lines of text sequentially then you will get most of the information you want. It may be a little specific, but better "obsidian statue of Nelo Amusedfield" than "unrecognised unicode character, grey". The most important stuff is at the top of the list, so if you can interrupt that then things shouldn't be *too* slow. I really should set up a screen reader on my linux box to see what can be done with it...

This of course wont help with embark or other times when no look is available, but I would recommend we worry about the main game (at least at first). You spend a lot more time playing than embarking after all, so getting help once would then give you a significant amount of solo playtime.

The biggest remaining problem there would be that having the DF cursor jump around would likely be *very* disorienting.

Hmm. DFHack can get the current cursor location, IIRC. I'm pretty sure that there's mechanisms to set hotkeys to programs in Linux, so you can probably get things set up to hit a key to get "The cursor is at 56, 74, 124" read out at you. (I think DFHack may be key to getting a whole bunch of information out, so I'm looking mainly at the linux side...)

One other thing I was thinking about that might be useful. DFHack can read a bunch of unit data. It should be possible to set it up to poll this data and keep track of the locations of various critters. This could then be compared to known map locations (maybe set via the point interface? does DFHack access those yet?) and changes announced...

"Goblin 1 is near the northern forest"
"Goblin 2 is near the front gate"
"Forgotten Beast Tofi Rethigaretho is near the stairs to the caverns"

It may also be possible to note proximity between units without waiting for a combat announcement to actually happen.
"Goblin 3 is near FisherDwarf Zon Zuglaratast"

Hmm. This might actually be useful enough to be stolen by rest of us, too...

Edit: I'm assuming there are probably multiple screen readers available for linux. You've probably had reason to put them through their paces. What are your preferences and/or recommendations?

[zkline]

Hi Kaypy,
Thanks for this.  I assume the look command just lets you arrow around the screen and figure out what's what on a given tile?  That would be quite useful indeed, and easy to read.  I know little about DF hack or Linux hotkeys for that matter, so can't really comment on that side of things.
My screen reader of choice is Speakup, available from www.linux-speakup.org.  It works with all Linux distributions, though if you want a system to test with I can recommend Vinux, www.vinux.org.uk, or indeed www.vinuxvirtual.org.uk, if you feel so inclined.  Vinux is a specialized version of Ubuntu which includes a bunch of accessibility tweaks, and is preconfigured to come up talking automatically.
Best and thanks,
Zack.

[kyle902]

Has soundsense been recommended? It basically adds sound to DF so stuff like announcements get audio alerts.

[zkline]

Hi,
Yep, SoundSense was mentioned as a possible addition.  I'm interested, but would like to get the core game working first I think.  It might be a great supplemental tool though.
Thanks,
Zack.

[kaypy]

In the look mode, one part of the screen is left roguelike display, while the other becomes a list (one entry per line) of what is on the currently selected tile. There's a bit of formatting for some items (eg decorations), but mostly just text. The currently selected tile is shown by highlighting the roguelike area with an X, which won't do you much good, hence my thoughts about an external cursor query.

When I say DFHack can probably do whatever, what would be useful from you is whether "whatever" sounds worth doing. So previous comments have, for example, put on hold certain mad plans to use a 16 character braille output as a 32x4 haptic dungeon layout indicator...

With screen readers, I was thinking more installing one on the system I already have, so ye olde boringe Ubuntu rather than a specialist accessibility platform. I'll play with speakup a bit and see what I can get it to do.

[zkline]

Hi,
I understand.  Thanks for the info about the look mode. 
Without further ado, then, let me say that all the DF Hack feature/s mentioned sound quite useful indeed.  I presume the last cursor coordinate is the Z level indicator? 
Unit proximity and location data sounds essential for fending off invasions and such, certainly.  Realtime updates would be greatly appreciated.
GOod luck with Speakup and its awful software voice, Espeakup.  How I lived with that speech system for so long I don't know.
Best,
Zack.

[DrKillPatient]

As to your question about changing creature tiles-- yes, I'm fairly sure any Unicode-tiled creatures can be modified to use other non-Unicode tiles, because that's in the raws. A dwarf, for instance, which is a smiley-face, could be changed to a capital D. The only other creature that has that tile is a dragon, so it's reasonably rare enough on other creatures to use that way. Another option is and @, which is only used for the player in adventure mode, and berserk dwarves I think.

The terrain will be a problem. I think that all the terrain tiles are hardcoded, and don't have raw entries-- thus, they can't easily be changed. So the water/magma tiles (double tilde's), ramp tiles (up and down arrows), and constructed walls (various lines) will pose significant issues.

[zkline]

Hi,
Good to know creatures themselves won't pose too many problems.  I'm concerned about terrain, but am sure that one way or another we can work things out.  I'm a bit confused about how ramps and such work, actually.  Does one use a ramp to go up and down a Z-level, and is there always an up-ramp and a down-ramp in contiguous spots?  I'm just trying to compare them to staircases in traditional rogue likes, which I'm reasonably familiar with.
Thanks for the info
Zack.

[DrKillPatient]

Ramps only work if there's a solid wall (constructed, natural or otherwise) on at least one side of them. On ground level, a ramp will show an up arrow. One level higher, but in the same x and y space above the up ramp, a down arrow will display to show that there's an up ramp below it. Basically, the down ramp sits on top of the up ramp, one Z-level higher. The same applies with stairs, although they have the symbols > and < instead.

EDIT: oh, and down ramps are the product of up ramps, so if you remove an up ramp the down ramp deletes too. You can create ramps from above by channeling the floor, although you can't actually construct a down ramp.

[Rowanas]

Just popping back in to reaffirm my amazement that we're having a conversation about the easiest way (note, "easiest" rather than "only possible") for a BLIND dude to play computer games. I admit, this is one of those occasional times when my brain completely fails to handle something. Seriously, I think I lost 1d20 SAN the first time I read this thread.

On the topic at hand:

I've been looking about, but despite the massive variety of linux stuff out there on the web, I've been unable to find even one bloke with a fix for the Linux unicode issue. If anyone knows of any linux coders (and you do, because this is a forum for an freeware, indie roguelike), perhaps they could take a look at the problem. It might be fixable.

[zkline]

Hi,
Your amazement amuses me.  Computers are one of the biggest advances for the blind community since Braille was invented, and games are just one aspect of that whole picture.  It's easy for mainstream companies to ignore us, but indie titles like DF are another matter. 
As for the Linux unicode problem, it's a screen reader design issue more than anything else I think.  Speakup is old code, pre-2000 in some cases, and updated on a volunteer basis, though I must say getting included in the kernel was a huge step forward for Linux accessibility.  Still, I would love to see full Unicode support added at some point, not just for DF, though that's a big part of it.  Anyway, I'm not sure how likely or easy it is.
Best, and keep the thoughts coming,
Zack.