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[Putnam]

Even if magic is going to be randomly generated, it has to be randomly generated inside of certain frameworks.  Saying "generate it randomly!" doesn't answer all questions.

For instance, will random generation have the possibility of making a D&D style fireball spell that you can cast 1 time per day when you're a 4th level magic user?  No.  Not unless you build in class and level and usage per day and fireballs.  (And I don't think Toady wants that kind of magic anyways.)

Alright, here's how I think magic should be, since "randomly generated" is clearly not specific enough (which I agree with!)

The current interaction framework should eventually be expanded. Magic will be part of it. Magic will allow you to do many things, when it's included: temperature effects, water pressure, flow, pretty much anything simulated in the game will probably have a magic system to it. For example: the ability to take something and move it somewhere else, that is, telekinesis/teleportation. This has a wide variety of applications, such as teleporting one's self to another place or teleporting an enemy's brain into a volcano. This is what makes me excited: magic can have a wide variety of applications, not all of which will be anticipated by Toady, just like everything else in this game. The actual magic will be generated on a per-world basis; much like vampires are going to be, they will be based on various systems in various works of fiction. The system of using the magic, and where the power for it comes from: an MP system (See: Final Fantasy VII), a "spell has certain uses and charges" system (See: Final Fantasy, Final Fantasy VIII), or an "Equivalent Exchange" system (Fullmetal Alchemist). Also possible are different systems of the actual magic used: a system where a spell can only be used for one purpose (E.G, a fireball is a fireball, an offensive weapon that can only be used to make a large fireball; no lighting cigars with fireballs!), or a system where, rather than spells, magic is magic, and can be used for anything: not just fireballs, but the ability to superheat water, or have firebreath, or boil your enemy's blood.

[m4davis]

Even if magic is going to be randomly generated, it has to be randomly generated inside of certain frameworks.  Saying "generate it randomly!" doesn't answer all questions.

For instance, will random generation have the possibility of making a D&D style fireball spell that you can cast 1 time per day when you're a 4th level magic user?  No.  Not unless you build in class and level and usage per day and fireballs.  (And I don't think Toady wants that kind of magic anyways.)

Alright, here's how I think magic should be, since "randomly generated" is clearly not specific enough (which I agree with!)

The current interaction framework should eventually be expanded. Magic will be part of it. Magic will allow you to do many things, when it's included: temperature effects, water pressure, flow, pretty much anything simulated in the game will probably have a magic system to it. For example: the ability to take something and move it somewhere else, that is, telekinesis/teleportation. This has a wide variety of applications, such as teleporting one's self to another place or teleporting an enemy's brain into a volcano. This is what makes me excited: magic can have a wide variety of applications, not all of which will be anticipated by Toady, just like everything else in this game. The actual magic will be generated on a per-world basis; much like vampires are going to be, they will be based on various systems in various works of fiction. The system of using the magic, and where the power for it comes from: an MP system (See: Final Fantasy VII), a "spell has certain uses and charges" system (See: Final Fantasy, Final Fantasy VIII), or an "Equivalent Exchange" system (Fullmetal Alchemist). Also possible are different systems of the actual magic used: a system where a spell can only be used for one purpose (E.G, a fireball is a fireball, an offensive weapon that can only be used to make a large fireball; no lighting cigars with fireballs!), or a system where, rather than spells, magic is magic, and can be used for anything: not just fireballs, but the ability to superheat water, or have firebreath, or boil your enemy's blood.

I love this all of it

[Putnam]

I love this all of it

Well, I guess you can say that I know what Toady wants with this game, and I know how he's worked so far to do it. He wants a generic fantasy world generator that the player can interact with in any way he so wishes, and that is the example I followed when writing that up. All the content in this game is generic; the dwarves are generic, the humans are generic, the elves are slightly less generic (eating sapients?), but still pretty generic, hungry heads are generic, pretty much everything in this game is generic. However, the fact that the systems involved that simulate them are brutally realistic are what makes it unique; everything in this game is brutally realistic, and that's what makes me excited about magic. Have you seen footage of Skyrim? A man gets hit by dragonfire, and he stands there, uninjured, but slightly on fire. The same happens with fireball and flamethrower spells. In DF, this won't happen. The magic in TES could probably be in it: levitation, fireballs, cold spells, etc. However, rather than causing generic elemental damage, the offensive spells will do things like blister and melt fat (fireballs and flamethrower spells), cause frostbite and long-term necrotization, (frost spells), and cause low-area extreme burns, destroyed tissue, and possible cardiac arrest (lightning spells).


Let me just say this: Magic in DF should be exactly like magic in everything else, but with the realism edge that makes DF so appealing.

[EnigmaticHat]

Frankly, I think magic shouldn't be something you can't get easily or use often.  Even if all magic isn't randomly generated, the player should be at the mercy of the random number generator when it comes to obtaining magic.  Gods, demons, artifacts, land features, rare magical beings, ancient secrets; these things are all acceptable sources of magic to me.  An item or skill that can be built or trained from the start is not.  My reasoning is simple; when you find an wand of fire in nethack or D&D, it's "magic" in the sense that it defies science, but there's nothing wonderous or special or mysterious about it.  It isn't magic if you fully understand or control it, its just a thinly disguised gameplay mechanic.

I'm not saying that there couldn't be magic that is commonly available in universe, such as charms that everyone knows, or "secrets" that have spread everywhere, or magic creatures running amok.  I'm saying when you gen up a new world and start a new adventurer or fort, you shouldn't be able to look forward to getting mages to defend yourself, or a bag of holding, or be able to optimize your character for the most powerful magic missiles.  Opportunities to get magic should be out of the player's control, and even when they have a chance they should have to work for it, or pay for it somehow.  Basically, I'm saying that the game should decide what magic the player can get, not the player.  If they want to have complete control over the world, Toady already has plans for them to play as a megabeast or a god.  Ordinary mortals should have to work for their damn fireballs, and search, and fight, and bleed, and hope, and make a deal with the devil, because when they finally get them it'll feel awesome, like being a badass wizard is something they earned.

[Putnam]

Frankly, I think magic shouldn't be something you can't get easily or use often.  Even if all magic isn't randomly generated, the player should be at the mercy of the random number generator when it comes to obtaining magic.  Gods, demons, artifacts, land features, rare magical beings, ancient secrets; these things are all acceptable sources of magic to me.  An item or skill that can be built or trained from the start is not.  My reasoning is simple; when you find an wand of fire in nethack or D&D, it's "magic" in the sense that it defies science, but there's nothing wonderous or special or mysterious about it.  It isn't magic if you fully understand or control it, its just a thinly disguised gameplay mechanic.

I'm not saying that there couldn't be magic that is commonly available in universe, such as charms that everyone knows, or "secrets" that have spread everywhere, or magic creatures running amok.  I'm saying when you gen up a new world and start a new adventurer or fort, you shouldn't be able to look forward to getting mages to defend yourself, or a bag of holding, or be able to optimize your character for the most powerful magic missiles.  Opportunities to get magic should be out of the player's control, and even when they have a chance they should have to work for it, or pay for it somehow.  Basically, I'm saying that the game should decide what magic the player can get, not the player.  If they want to have complete control over the world, Toady already has plans for them to play as a megabeast or a god.  Ordinary mortals should have to work for their damn fireballs, and search, and fight, and bleed, and hope, and make a deal with the devil, because when they finally get them it'll feel awesome, like being a badass wizard is something they earned.

+1

[m4davis]

Frankly, I think magic shouldn't be something you can't get easily or use often.  Even if all magic isn't randomly generated, the player should be at the mercy of the random number generator when it comes to obtaining magic.  Gods, demons, artifacts, land features, rare magical beings, ancient secrets; these things are all acceptable sources of magic to me.  An item or skill that can be built or trained from the start is not.  My reasoning is simple; when you find an wand of fire in nethack or D&D, it's "magic" in the sense that it defies science, but there's nothing wonderous or special or mysterious about it.  It isn't magic if you fully understand or control it, its just a thinly disguised gameplay mechanic.

I'm not saying that there couldn't be magic that is commonly available in universe, such as charms that everyone knows, or "secrets" that have spread everywhere, or magic creatures running amok.  I'm saying when you gen up a new world and start a new adventurer or fort, you shouldn't be able to look forward to getting mages to defend yourself, or a bag of holding, or be able to optimize your character for the most powerful magic missiles.  Opportunities to get magic should be out of the player's control, and even when they have a chance they should have to work for it, or pay for it somehow.  Basically, I'm saying that the game should decide what magic the player can get, not the player.  If they want to have complete control over the world, Toady already has plans for them to play as a megabeast or a god.  Ordinary mortals should have to work for their damn fireballs, and search, and fight, and bleed, and hope, and make a deal with the devil, because when they finally get them it'll feel awesome, like being a badass wizard is something they earned.

+1

+2

[Neonivek]

here's how I think magic should be, since "randomly generated" is clearly not specific enough

Yeah you noticed that a lot of people just say "Random" instead of actually saying what random is a lot of the time didn't you?

Anyhow magic cannot exactly work the way you would like. While mechanical effects are lovely you also need a hint of majesty and profane. Those are the kinds of things that are going to need more dirrect creation as the game wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a spell that causes someone to die and a spell that heals someone.

A lot of what makes magic what it is fits entirely within the imagry that it inspires. Necromancy and generic holy magic are extremely similar.

the player should be at the mercy of the random number generator when it comes to obtaining magic

I could understand it being tough, but remember that one of the things you do not want to create is a "character creation gauntlet". If magic is so rare that just to have it you have to be one of the "lucky ones" then simply allow an option to generate as one of the lucky ones.

I mean you generate as a Demigod as it is and in the future they will have genuin powers (as right now... Demigod is more accurately an accelerated start).

"when you find an wand of fire in nethack or D&D, it's "magic" in the sense that it defies science, but there's nothing wonderous or special or mysterious about it."

Actually within the setting of dungeons and dragons magic is a external source of energy that has been studied for centuries and is in fact intigrated into science. In fact the major difference between a Sorcerer and a Wizard is that a Sorcerer's powers comes from a natural magical gift and thus his magic is a natural extension of himself while the Wizard's magic comes from years of study and mental preperation to manipulate the magic around him. Hense why a Sorcerer uses Charisma and a Wizard uses intelligence.

Very few people within Dungeons and Dragons can even hope to manipulate the magical forces at any conceivable scale and even of those who have the ability, very few have enough talent to take it anywhere. To put it in perspective a Fireball requires a genius and would require I believe 4 ENTIRE pages in a large tome to even diagram how to properly cast it.

Its mundane appearance comes in two forms. One is the mechanics which cuts out all the dangerous and boring research a wizard would actually have to do just to know magic and glosses over the sacrifice they have to do to even create magic items, the second is that players are free to learn magic at any point and have little problem doing so.

You have to think about what exactly are you expecting the player to do.

Also if the player is so knowledgable of their own world that they can predict EXACTLY what it is they need... then obviously it is their benefit.

If they went to a Griffon who was bestowed the light of the gods as another character... and used that knowledge for another character to also learn that ability (somehow) then good for them.

You forget that with too much uncertainty you get goo... Just lifeless Goo.

Magic without logic is just whirling chaos.

Opportunities to get magic should be out of the player's contro

No by all means it should be within the player's ability or else it is less "Magic" and more double blind lottery. Spontaniously learning magic though, I can agree with. Fiction is brimmed with people who learned magic simply by enjoying nature or sparks of inspiration (I miss that book... though from what I understand it gets less interesting as it goes on).

Guarenteed magic, yes that is out of the player's control. Doing things that has a good possibility in ending with magic sounds perfectly logical (if he even knows what it is)

From a logical standpoint how would "Player has no control" even make sense unless there were even MORE specific barriers that head in the exact opposite dirrection your indicating (which is that magic should be rare and spontanious... however to take it out of the player's control makes it very specific)

[Putnam]

It is eventually planned for you to have procedurally generated backgrounds; Armok 1 had something like this (You were born to Urist and Urist. Early in your life, you were cursed by the gods. Soon after, you lost urist to disease. Soon after, you caught a horrible disease. These were the only events that could happen ), and it could be something like "At the age of 2, you were taken to be an apprentice by the great wizard Urist. He taught you all he knows." And when you start, you're in his tower and something Fun could be happening, or you could just leave and start having adventures with your magic that this great magician had.

What's the magic?

DUSTOMANCY!

"You gather some dust from the ground and launch it at the goblin! The spinning dust strikes the goblin in the head, jamming the skull through the brain and tearing the brain!"

[Hitty40]

Toady puts magic in, and Urist McMage creates a FB out of socks.

[EnigmaticHat]

Neonivek, when I said "opportunities to get magic should be out of the player's control", I wasn't implying that magic should occur/exist for illogical reasons, just uncontrollable ones.  Nor was I implying that the player couldn't seek out magic once it exists, just that it should be difficult.  For example, magic artifacts are random in the sense that the player doesn't decide when a flaming sword will be constructed, but you can still hear about them from other people in universe and go to find the sword if one exists.  This is as opposed to a system where a flaming sword is something that can be reliably and purposefully built.  The way I see it, if every player has a flaming sword, yours isn't special.  If flaming swords are restricted to artifacts, most players won't have one, which means your flaming sword actually is rare and unusually powerful.  Furthermore, even if other worlds exist with flaming swords, yours will have its own name and history and material and maybe some secondary effects you might not even know about.  And, since the player either searched the sword out, bought it, or made it themselves, they'll feel like the deserve the power it gives them.

(For the record, "flaming sword" is just a generic example of a magic item that's supposed to be really awesome but is diminished because often everyone can get one.  You could replace it with any other such item.)

Also, I'm going to rephrase what I said about magic in D&D and nethack.  It's magic in the sense that it defies real life science, but in universe it's as mundane as gravity.  That's the point I was trying to make; when you can reliably generate a new character that can throw magic missiles  from the start, they aren't really magic, they're just an especially strange form of commonplace.

[Nil Eyeglazed]

It's just not possible to make everybody happy.

Some people want to start out with a wizard adventurer.  Some people want magic to be so special that it would be practically out of reach for everyone.  Between those extremes lies a diversity of incompatible views-- slightly less incompatible, yes, but still incompatible.  And there are other dimensions-- some people want wizards capable of casting fireball spells.  Some people want harmful "spells" to be slow-acting and ritualistic, more curse than combat.

Toady sounds like he leans a lot more toward the out-of-reach, mysterious, non-combat side of things.  Somebody like Gandalf might be a possibility, but Gandalf never threw any fireballs or teleported or whatever either.  I think the people who want more MMORPG/D&D/etc magic are going to be disappointed.

(And I think I'm going to be delighted )

[Bronimin]

-

[Jake]

One interesting possibility that comes to mind is tying magic into the biome system, which is apparently going to change somewhat from the simple good/evil setup we have at the moment. Various unique minerals could emit background magic aligned to the various spheres, with appropriate effects on the local wildlife, and the more of a particular magical substance there is in a site then the more pronounced -and weird- the effects would be.

[Neonivek]

I am somewhat aware of what you meant EnigmaticHat, I just want us to be clearer in our terminology and to be more exact with out desires and suggestions.

"Random" and "Uncontrolled" are used to the extent that they have become less terms and more categories as vast as the sea is wide.

As well one possible idea Toady is working with is a magic slider that can go from anywhere from "Magic doesn't exist" all the way to "Magic is so dirt common that people learn magical martial arts" (I should state that Toady made it clear that even in a bountiful magic world he doesn't want spellcasting to be too common)