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[Draco18s]

Are you going to breakdown every tag and disect the bolt?

FOR SCIENCE!

[CaptApollo12]

Are you going to breakdown every tag and disect the bolt?

FOR SCIENCE!

thiis

[franti]

I modded Slade into the game, and I've been testing it in the arena before I give it to my dwarves.
A Group of 50 fully armoured Slade Dwarves VS 50 fully armoured Adamantine Dwarves almost always results in a Slade victory by a longshot.
My theory? Density makes for better armour.
Adamantine and Slade (in my game) have the same breaking/bending info, but Slade is super heavy.

[Ramirez]

To my knowledge the uselessness of adamantine bolts comes not from them not being able to penetrate, but how against larger targets they will penetrate up to their maximum 2000 depth, at which point their attack becomes a blunt attack. Crossbows easily max out their shoot velocity with candy bolts, meaning against large targets you are effectively just firing paper aeroplanes at the enemy. Iron and steel have the mass to take advantage of the crossbows shooting force, and so they will still cause injuries beyond the 2000 penetration depth.

That being said, I havent really tested my theories so they are mostly just my interpretation of my knowledge of game mechanics. I think more testing against larger targets (which would bring the penetration depth variable into play) is needed.

[franti]

A test I ran awhile ago with Slade Shortsword/Shield VS Adamantine Shortsword/Shield shows the exact opposite results. Slade wins all the time. The weight does not seem to modify the attack speed, and dwarves swing everything at the same velocity.
Now, dwarves swinging everything the same velocity is unrealistic, but what it does to the game isn't: A piece of copper traveling 50mph will do a lot less than a piece of lead traveling 50mph.
Also, the high density makes Shield bashes/Sword smacks super lethal.

[lanceleoghauni]

Nothing Terribly scientific, but silver bolts still seem to rip things apart.

[Urist Da Vinci]

A test I ran awhile ago with Slade Shortsword/Shield VS Adamantine Shortsword/Shield shows the exact opposite results. Slade wins all the time. The weight does not seem to modify the attack speed, and dwarves swing everything at the same velocity.
Now, dwarves swinging everything the same velocity is unrealistic, but what it does to the game isn't: A piece of copper traveling 50mph will do a lot less than a piece of lead traveling 50mph.
Also, the high density makes Shield bashes/Sword smacks super lethal.

Yes, but we are concerned with ranged combat here, which may operate under different rules than melee combat...

Nothing Terribly scientific, but silver bolts still seem to rip things apart.

I thought that wood bolts were effective until I read the combat logs and saw them deflected by clothing.

[Urist Da Vinci]

To my knowledge the uselessness of adamantine bolts comes not from them not being able to penetrate, but how against larger targets they will penetrate up to their maximum 2000 depth, at which point their attack becomes a blunt attack. Crossbows easily max out their shoot velocity with candy bolts, meaning against large targets you are effectively just firing paper aeroplanes at the enemy. Iron and steel have the mass to take advantage of the crossbows shooting force, and so they will still cause injuries beyond the 2000 penetration depth.

That being said, I havent really tested my theories so they are mostly just my interpretation of my knowledge of game mechanics. I think more testing against larger targets (which would bring the penetration depth variable into play) is needed.

It appears that adamantine bolts can be useful against the largest targets. I was just pass/fail testing in this case:

Code: [Select]

The flying adamantine bolt strikes Dragon 1 in the right rear leg, tearing the scale!
The adamantine bolt has lodged firmly in the wound!
You are caught in a burst of steam!
The flying adamantine bolt strikes Dragon 1 in the lower body, tearing the fat!
The adamantine bolt has lodged firmly in the wound!
The flying adamantine bolt strikes Dragon 1 in the lower body, tearing the muscle and tearing the guts!
Dragon 1 looks sick!
The adamantine bolt has lodged firmly in the wound!
Dragon 1 vomits.
Dragon 1 retches.
Dragon 1 retches.
The flying adamantine bolt strikes Dragon 1 in the upper body, tearing the muscle and tearing the left lung!
Dragon 1 is having trouble breathing!
The adamantine bolt has lodged firmly in the wound!
Dragon 1 retches.
The flying adamantine bolt strikes Dragon 1 in the right rear leg, chipping the bone!
A tendon has been torn!
The adamantine bolt has lodged firmly in the wound!
Dragon 1 retches.


[lanceleoghauni]

For me I typically see silver bolts stab some organ, or tear something open, my hunters just sort of tear elephants and goblins apart, they give in to pain, wretch, etc. before they have a chance to do much.

[nanomage]

Unfortunately, your experiments are flawed by ignoring the excess encubmrance of Heavy Iron dwarves.
I made a quick test, and an arena dwarf with iron bolts [100] has 919 speed, while the one with heavy iron bolts has 618.
This difference explains your results much more easily - iron dwarves just fire 1.5 times faster!

[Wayward Device]

One thing that nobody has mentioned so far is how weight effects stuck-ins. I don't have any, you know, ‼HARD SCIENCE‼ to prove it with, but I'm almost certain it has a huge impact. Anecdotal evidence: In a fort I had defended by two squads with crossbows I had a gneiss forgotten beast trapped in a cavern lake. For practice my dwarfs peppered it with about 2k of bolts. Because of the way I had my bolt production set up, it was a fifty-fifty split between wooden and gold, my two most common materials. Reading through the combat reports, about one in fifty wooden bolts stuck, while it was more like a third to a half of the gold ones. The only real benefit from this is if you want to coat your bolts with forgotten beast extract, since as I understand it only through stuck-ins can you get the extract effect, if it's from a weapon coating. But this is crazy dangerous and usually end in a necrosis spiral. Also, Huzzah! This is my first post

[USEC_OFFICER]

Unfortunately, your experiments are flawed by ignoring the excess encubmrance of Heavy Iron dwarves.
I made a quick test, and an arena dwarf with iron bolts [100] has 919 speed, while the one with heavy iron bolts has 618.
This difference explains your results much more easily - iron dwarves just fire 1.5 times faster!

Yes, we realize the effects that encumbrance has on the firing speed of dwarves and are currently redoing the experiments to compensate for the effects.

[IT 000]

Unfortunately, your experiments are flawed by ignoring the excess encubmrance of Heavy Iron dwarves.
I made a quick test, and an arena dwarf with iron bolts [100] has 919 speed, while the one with heavy iron bolts has 618.
This difference explains your results much more easily - iron dwarves just fire 1.5 times faster!

Which just goes to prove that increased weight actually has an adverse effect on bolts with no increase in damage. Less of a flaw and more of a hidden statistic which I stated in post one.

[Lagslayer]

The gatling-crossbow problem was solved by making it so another bolt can't be fired until the first hits something. If a heavier bolt travels slower, but the same distance, it would explain the slower rate of fire. Also, the game has always treated both movement speed and attack speed are the same stat. A handful of bolts, even if they are made of slade, are still relatively light compared to everything else the dwarves are carrying around. The firing speed is not slower because of the extra weight they carry, but because the bolts themselves are moving slower. Or at least that is the theory.

On a tangent, does anyone know the velocity multiplier of a crossbow/bow/blowgun?

[franti]

Some more tests I ran:
Marksdwarves in full Steel with Slade/Adamantine Bolts usually results in a Slade victory. Slade is far better at damaging armour: if armour deflects a Slade Bolt, the bone beneath it ususally fractures.
Also, Slade penetrates Slade a lot less commonly than Adamantine penetrates Adamantine. Make of that what you will.