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[Draco18s]

And what was your setup? If the dwarves have a space to dodge to, they will and that could throw off the testing.

Additionally, screenshots of the results would be nice.

Survivors marked by color.  The one unconscious fellow is a blue and later recovered.

[IT 000]

Yes it appears that bolts are deadly no matter which way you flip them. My tests show about 50/50 casualties. But I plan on nerfing bolts and seeing which material does more damage.

[Draco18s]

Yes it appears that bolts are deadly no matter which way you flip them. My tests show about 50/50 casualties. But I plan on nerfing bolts and seeing which material does more damage.

Also try to see if you can get some slade bolts on some of the dwarves.

[IT 000]

I'd have to make a metal identical to slade's materials, seeing as they're already there I should have no problem testing it out.

[Khym Chanur]

To get around (or at least reduce) the problem of encumberance, and to get better results than for iron vs adamantine, why not make a Light Iron with a SOLID_DENSITY of 1 (200 times lighter than adamantine).  Make the armor and crossbows out of Light Iron so they're carrying hardly any weight, then give one side Light Iron bolts and the other Normal Iron bolts; neither side should be encumbered.

[Urist Da Vinci]

Code: [Select]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_CROSSBOW]
[NAME:crossbow:crossbows]
[SIZE:400]
[SKILL:HAMMER]
[RANGED:CROSSBOW:BOLT]
[SHOOT_FORCE:1000]
[SHOOT_MAXVEL:1000]  This is just to make sure a near-weightless object doesn't go faster than the string could possibly go.
[TWO_HANDED:0]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:15000]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:10000:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:1250]

The comment text in the raw file for crossbows suggests that the SHOOT_FORCE provides some "velocity" number to the combat calculations, based on the weight of the bolt, but no higher than SHOOT_MAXVEL. We don't know if the code actually works like that. I do know that if you increase both of those variables to large numbers, you can get knockback/send flying critters that get hit by a bolt. Perhaps the SHOOT_MAXVEL prevents adamantine bolts from demonstrating ludicrious results.

[Draco18s]

Code: [Select]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_CROSSBOW]
[NAME:crossbow:crossbows]
[SIZE:400]
[SKILL:HAMMER]
[RANGED:CROSSBOW:BOLT]
[SHOOT_FORCE:1000]
[SHOOT_MAXVEL:1000]  This is just to make sure a near-weightless object doesn't go faster than the string could possibly go.
[TWO_HANDED:0]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:15000]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:10000:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:1250]

The comment text in the raw file for crossbows suggests that the SHOOT_FORCE provides some "velocity" number to the combat calculations, based on the weight of the bolt, but no higher than SHOOT_MAXVEL. We don't know if the code actually works like that. I do know that if you increase both of those variables to large numbers, you can get knockback/send flying critters that get hit by a bolt. Perhaps the SHOOT_MAXVEL prevents adamantine bolts from demonstrating ludicrious results.

Certainly a possibility.  You could duplicate the entry and double the maxvel for one of them, then with the Super Fast crossbows, add adamantine bolts and find out.

[VonCede]

Can you repeat your first test, but put the heavy iron on the left side of the fortification, and the normal iron on the right side?

[EddyP]

Are you sure lighter ammo works better? I recall addy ballista bolts as being useless.

[ImBocaire]

At any rate, this means that adamantine is still a terrible material for bolts. Just not in terms of effectiveness.

[IT 000]

Code: [Select]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_CROSSBOW]
[NAME:crossbow:crossbows]
[SIZE:400]
[SKILL:HAMMER]
[RANGED:CROSSBOW:BOLT]
[SHOOT_FORCE:1000]
[SHOOT_MAXVEL:1000]  This is just to make sure a near-weightless object doesn't go faster than the string could possibly go.
[TWO_HANDED:0]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:15000]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:10000:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:1250]

The comment text in the raw file for crossbows suggests that the SHOOT_FORCE provides some "velocity" number to the combat calculations, based on the weight of the bolt, but no higher than SHOOT_MAXVEL. We don't know if the code actually works like that. I do know that if you increase both of those variables to large numbers, you can get knockback/send flying critters that get hit by a bolt. Perhaps the SHOOT_MAXVEL prevents adamantine bolts from demonstrating ludicrious results.

This seems extremely likely. I'll add this to the main post.

Can you repeat your first test, but put the heavy iron on the left side of the fortification, and the normal iron on the right side?

I did a quick 10v10, with about the same results 4 winning for heavy iron six winning for light iron.

Are you sure lighter ammo works better? I recall addy ballista bolts as being useless.

Ballista bolts function differently, according to the wiki.

Although in previous versions of Dwarf Fortress, ballista bolts were second only to drawbridges in causing certain death for those on the business end of it, since the combat overhaul, bolts have become significantly weaker, dealing only blunt damage despite presumably being fired tip-first. The result is much bruising, occasional shattered bones, and only rarely a death from a shattered spine or crushed skull.

If this is right, adamantine would suck at ballista bolts. But that's not something I can easily test in the arena.

[Excedion]

Hmmm. Perhaps a heavy crossbow could be created then. One with double or more maxvel and slightly heavier and perhaps make them only craftable from metal as a tradeoff.

[Draco18s]

Hmmm. Perhaps a heavy crossbow could be created then. One with double or more maxvel and slightly heavier and perhaps make them only craftable from metal as a tradeoff.

Its not like it needs to be a permanent item to test this stuff.

[Excedion]

Hmmm. Perhaps a heavy crossbow could be created then. One with double or more maxvel and slightly heavier and perhaps make them only craftable from metal as a tradeoff.

Its not like it needs to be a permanent item to test this stuff.

No but i mean if people sought to make marksdwarves more useful or at least equally as good as melee dwarves then perhaps this could be an option as well as not being too unbalanced

[CaptApollo12]

Hmmm. Perhaps a heavy crossbow could be created then. One with double or more maxvel and slightly heavier and perhaps make them only craftable from metal as a tradeoff.

Its not like it needs to be a permanent item to test this stuff.

No but i mean if people sought to make marksdwarves more useful or at least equally as good as melee dwarves then perhaps this could be an option as well as not being too unbalanced

I think the question here is mechanics and not gameplay - Hence the section. Though I like the idea of having different bolts than what gobbos bring (as a modding perspective.)

Are you going to breakdown every tag and disect the bolt?