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Yes.

No.

Only for certain crimes. (Name please)

[Vector]

No, it's really a serious question.

I feel like Mengele is an example worst case scenario for the medical experiments you suggested.  Furthermore, I think you said it was okay because you didn't think of the people in question as people anymore--parasites or something.  I may be misquoting you.

So then, you don't think Mengele is a fair comparison, despite the dehumanization of the criminals in question.  All right, that's fair.  So logically, that would imply

a. You believe that animals have certain rights to be free of particular kinds of medical experimentation

b. You believe that objects have certain rights to be free of particular kinds of medical experimentation

c. You were exaggerating the degree of dehumanization

d. Something else

And yeah, I'm genuinely curious.

As for the occasional innocent? It's a small price to pay in my opinion.
Say what you want, but a police-state/totalitarian government a la Deus Ex would not be that bad.

':[

[Neonivek]

Perhaps even make it a public thing, as an example to others

From what I understand most people do not REALLY know what death is. Any sort of execution now adays that can be viewed by others is done in such a way to make it as pleasing to those viewing it as possible. (The movie I like the most for this was the one where the Electric Chair went wrong and everyone was suddenly sickened... I could only go "Well what do you THINK happens at an execution?")

Public executions would have to be an insult to human dignity and censored like crazy not to create some sort of anti-capital punishment movement.

The best example of this in action?

War... People will support war until they find out "Ohh yeah, we kill people in war and we are also in turn killed".

[Leafsnail]

Alternatively, the crimeboss bigshot sits for 5 years because lolmoney/lolconnections/lolnotenoughevidence after which they go back to their "business" as if nothing happened.
Wouldn't it just be best to eliminate the cancerous element as soon as discovered, before it has time to grow?

So we execute the people with no evidence against them!  Brilliant plan.

[SalmonGod]

War... People will support war until they find out "Ohh yeah, we kill people in war and we are also in turn killed".

It's funny how people will admit to knowledge of this and still be dishonest about it.

Like when you point out the ratio of civilians who die in war vs combatants, the long-term social consequences, and the proven crimes of the side that they support as being morally superior.  You're likely to get the hand-wave response of "Well duh... war is hell.  Facts of life.  Quit whining."  Of course, the people who say this have never themselves been collateral damage victims, and very obviously shut their minds to the idea.

Same with capital punishment.  All hand waves.  Accidentally the innocent?  "LOL sux to be them.  L2CourtDefense nubs.  We're makin omelets here, bitches!  Deal!"

[Stas]

Perhaps even make it a public thing, as an example to others

(The movie I like the most for this was the one where the Electric Chair went wrong and everyone was suddenly sickened... I could only go "Well what do you THINK happens at an execution?")\

Green Mile or something, good movie.

Yeh, humans have grown kinda soft over the past few years, this should be remedied.

Alternatively, the crimeboss bigshot sits for 5 years because lolmoney/lolconnections/lolnotenoughevidence after which they go back to their "business" as if nothing happened.
Wouldn't it just be best to eliminate the cancerous element as soon as discovered, before it has time to grow?

So we execute the people with no evidence against them!  Brilliant plan.

You know those people that have entire dossiers about them in FBI offices, but can't be arrested because the judiciary system is so full of loopholes? People that are obviously criminal scum, but have such lawyers that putting them behind bars is near-impossible.
Yeah, well when it's common knowledge that they are sacks of shit that know they will walk no matter what, it's so much fun to hear about how they shat themselves when a kill-team kicked down their door and dragged them out into the night.
That is the kind of people I was talking about.

War... People will support war until they find out "Ohh yeah, we kill people in war and we are also in turn killed".

Same with capital punishment.  All hand waves.  Accidentally the innocent?  "LOL sux to be them.  L2CourtDefense nubs.  We're makin omelets here, bitches!  Deal!"

For some reason I laughed a lot when I read that.
Alright, true the innocent part is not that pretty, but what can you do?

[Vector]

Maybe we could stop stuffing people of color into prison at a much higher rate than their white counterparts--i.e., people who have committed precisely the same crime.

Maybe.


I'm sorry, but I don't think I'd be laughing about that kill-team.  I think I'd be writing about it here in the progressive rage thread and donating to organizations to make it stop.

[SalmonGod]

War... People will support war until they find out "Ohh yeah, we kill people in war and we are also in turn killed".

Same with capital punishment.  All hand waves.  Accidentally the innocent?  "LOL sux to be them.  L2CourtDefense nubs.  We're makin omelets here, bitches!  Deal!"

For some reason I laughed a lot when I read that.
Alright, true the innocent part is not that pretty, but what can you do?

To be fair, I can deal with that attitude when I actually believe that it's honest.  It very very rarely happens, but I have encountered people before who believed in war, capital punishment, etc and were mature about it.  They fully accepted the faults in their ideas and I got the genuine impression that if they found themselves at the losing end of their ideals that they would accept it with dignity.  These people are so extremely rare.  I've debated these topics on the internet for roughly 14 years with literally thousands of people, and only a handful have ever struck me as having that kind of integrity.

But that's really all I ask for.  I can accept a person having just about any set of beliefs or ideologies, so long as they are consistent, honest, and make real attempts to emotionally absorb to the fullest extent possible the ramifications of their ideas.  If you preach beliefs that involve killing people, then I'm ok with that as long as you can demonstrate that you fully comprehend that your judgments of those you harm are completely subjective and fallible and make you of no better objective worth whatsoever than your enemies.  On the other hand, I have very little tolerance for cognitive dissonance.  If you justify your actions by dehumanizing human beings, you're either stooping to the lowest of lows or are simply too immature to know what you are saying.

[Max White]

Alright, true the innocent part is not that pretty, but what can you do?

*Ahem*
NOT IMPOSE THE DEATH PENALTY

[Hitty40]

Death penalty, all the way. Except replace it with a danger room. And Cotton Candy upward spikes.

[ChairmanPoo]

Hmm, it's generally acknowledged that Mengele's "experiments" were of little scientific worth... which is in itself telling about the problems of this approach.

[Impending Doom]

Even in my rabid conservative fervor, I still say no. Killing should be for soldiers and war.

[Stas]

War... People will support war until they find out "Ohh yeah, we kill people in war and we are also in turn killed".

Same with capital punishment.  All hand waves.  Accidentally the innocent?  "LOL sux to be them.  L2CourtDefense nubs.  We're makin omelets here, bitches!  Deal!"

For some reason I laughed a lot when I read that.
Alright, true the innocent part is not that pretty, but what can you do?

To be fair, I can deal with that attitude when I actually believe that it's honest.  It very very rarely happens, but I have encountered people before who believed in war, capital punishment, etc and were mature about it.  They fully accepted the faults in their ideas and I got the genuine impression that if they found themselves at the losing end of their ideals that they would accept it with dignity.  These people are so extremely rare.  I've debated these topics on the internet for roughly 14 years with literally thousands of people, and only a handful have ever struck me as having that kind of integrity.

But that's really all I ask for.  I can accept a person having just about any set of beliefs or ideologies, so long as they are consistent, honest, and make real attempts to emotionally absorb to the fullest extent possible the ramifications of their ideas.  If you preach beliefs that involve killing people, then I'm ok with that as long as you can demonstrate that you fully comprehend that your judgments of those you harm are completely subjective and fallible and make you of no better objective worth whatsoever than your enemies.  On the other hand, I have very little tolerance for cognitive dissonance.  If you justify your actions by dehumanizing human beings, you're either stooping to the lowest of lows or are simply too immature to know what you are saying.

If I found myself on the losing end, let's face it, I would thrash about and try to desperately claw my way out until the last instant, but wouldn't we all? We ARE human, after all. Sure I would scream my innocence and curse this unjust system, but perhaps, as I am dragged into the back of a van during the night, wearing nothing more than my underwear, somewhere else the same scenario plays itself ten more times, but instead of an innocent like me, it's murderers, rapists, kidnappers, pedophiles, that are dragged out of their beds during the night. In that case my death was more than a fair exchange for the lives of that family who otherwise would have been butchered by a madman, or that of the little girl who would end up sold as a sex-slave, or even just knowing that Mary would make it safely home that one night.

It would suck as hell to be on the losing end, but in the end it might just be worth it.

[Luke_Prowler]

In a perfect world were power can't be abused, where people's mental problems can be solved without a chemical crutch, and innocence can be found without guessing, then sure. There are some people that drop past the Moral Event Horizon and deserve being kicked into a magma bath. But until then, I'm against it.

[Grimshot]

No, it's really a serious question.

I feel like Mengele is an example worst case scenario for the medical experiments you suggested.  Furthermore, I think you said it was okay because you didn't think of the people in question as people anymore--parasites or something.  I may be misquoting you.

So then, you don't think Mengele is a fair comparison, despite the dehumanization of the criminals in question.  All right, that's fair.  So logically, that would imply

a. You believe that animals have certain rights to be free of particular kinds of medical experimentation

b. You believe that objects have certain rights to be free of particular kinds of medical experimentation

c. You were exaggerating the degree of dehumanization

d. Something else

And yeah, I'm genuinely curious.

As for the occasional innocent? It's a small price to pay in my opinion.
Say what you want, but a police-state/totalitarian government a la Deus Ex would not be that bad.

':[

 Ah ok, sorry about asking but I wasn't sure. Lets see...

A. Honestly this is one subject I am conflicted about and I'm currently unable to resolve it. So effectively, yes. It should be noted that I consider the criminals on a lower level than most animals due to being able to think and still doing what they did (rape, murder, ect, ect).

B. Yes, unique/rare samples shouldn't be destroyed or damaged, usually. This is about were the convict test subjects would stand. I mentioned earlier that I was open to them volunteering for experimentation. If this was the case I would probably let them decide what experiment they would like to entered into.

C. Not really.

D. Mengele killed innocent people for pleasure, he was more a butcher than a scientist. I would be taking people who would die anyways for the horrible crimes that they've committed and using them to help humanity.

 As for caring about not mixing innocent people up with those who should be on death row... thats pretty obvious. I would be doing all of this to make life better for everyone, why would I not care about harming innocents?

 I should bring up at this point that even though I've been taking the more extreme side of my ideas the volunteer system is superior and benefits from actually being feasible.

 This will probably be my last post for tonight, too tired to think right, headache and all that. I hope I understood everything right and was coherent lol. Time to pass out...

[sonerohi]

I think we should turn the whole justice system into a laugh. We should turn it into American Idol or something, text 'zap' to our hot-lines to give this person the death penalty. We haven't the fortitude to stick to our ideals, so why not toss them out?