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[mainiac]

Actually the economy is worse with Obama's stimulus than it would have been without his stimulus, according to his own estimates. So no, it probably could have been better.

Once again, a lie.  The economy is worse after the stimulus then the economy was projected to get before the stimulus.  Entirely different.  To put it more directly:
"It's worse then we expected."  Furthermore, it had already gotten worse then those projections before the stimulus really started.  The stimulus didn't even pass until unemployment was at %8.2 and unemployment was already at %7.8 and quickly rising before Obama was even in office.  That's not even to mention that unemployment had already jumped 2% in just a few months before the election even took place.  But no, apparently Obama used black magic to travel back in time with Barney Frank and prevent G.W.B. from creating utopia in order to enact his socialist central planning schemes of extending unemployment benefits and repairing some roads.

Nikov, 100% pure unadulterated lies, all the time.

Nikov is wrong because the economy isn't worse than it would have been without the stimulus, it's worse than we thought it would have been without the stimulus.

Oooo-kay...

I might not have made this clear enough but Nikov was translating Obama's "It was worse then we thought" into "my policies failed".  This is because he is a relentless whore to the conservative movement who will say anything to advocate it's causes.

So it's worse now than we thought it would be before the stimulus, because there were other problems at work that we didn't know about at the time?

Well, I'd quibble very slightly and say that it was the problems we knew, we just didn't know how bad they were.  But the situation was a lot worse then we thought.  For isntance, to quote Matthew Yglesias today:

Specifically, when Barack Obama took office in the first quarter of 2009, the BEA was saying that the economy contracted 0.5 percent in the third quarter of 2008 and 3.8 percent in the fourth quarter. In fact, we now know that it plunged 3.7 percent and 8.9 percent.

At the time, our estimates of the damage were way on the short side.

[Heron TSG]

This is because [Nikov] is a relentless whore to the conservative movement who will say anything to advocate it's causes.

Too far. Stop that.

[nenjin]

As much as I enjoy a good pile on, guys, if you're going to criticize Nikov can we least not engage in outright defamation?

Fake edit: Ninja'd by Red Beard.

[Lysabild]

Gonna third and say way too far.

[Impending Doom]

I might not have made this clear enough but Nikov was translating Obama's "It was worse then we thought" into "my policies failed".  This is because he is a relentless whore to the conservative movement who will say anything to advocate it's causes.

RedKing already explained this far better than you. You on the other hand appear to have abandoned rational argument for the sake of some sort of vendetta against Nikov.

EDIT: My god, it's full of ninjas!

[mainiac]

Nikov is a treasure trove, collecting all the lies and misinformation that the conservative movement has invented over the years and regurgitating them all over our threads more or less constantly.

Better?

[PTTG??]

...
So yeah, what I'm wandering my way to, and people much smarter than I have wandered their way to the same point, is that the economy will continue to suck as long as a high profile Democrat is President, no matter the actual economic conditions, because business owners and investors large and small will continue to be "uncertain".

You have a horrifyingly clear grasp on human nature.

[Lysabild]

Nikov is a treasure trove, collecting all the lies and misinformation that the conservative movement has invented over the years and regurgitating them all over our threads more or less constantly.

Better?

How about removing it from the original post and then don't go that far again?

[mainiac]

...
So yeah, what I'm wandering my way to, and people much smarter than I have wandered their way to the same point, is that the economy will continue to suck as long as a high profile Democrat is President, no matter the actual economic conditions, because business owners and investors large and small will continue to be "uncertain".

You have a horrifyingly clear grasp on human nature.

"Uncertainty" in that sense is a conservative myth.  It's inadequate demand.  We have nothing to be worried about.

Nikov is a treasure trove, collecting all the lies and misinformation that the conservative movement has invented over the years and regurgitating them all over our threads more or less constantly.

Better?

How about removing it from the original post and then don't go that far again?

It's funny how people are more tolerant of lies then *gasp* rudeness.

[nenjin]

So yeah, what I'm wandering my way to, and people much smarter than I have wandered their way to the same point, is that the economy will continue to suck as long as a high profile Democrat is President, no matter the actual economic conditions, because business owners and investors large and small will continue to be "uncertain".


You have a horrifyingly clear grasp on human nature.

Oh I don't know about that. Uncertainty is a sign of the times and it's been that way for a decade now. I think businesses who try to remain uncertain based on factors like what the party of the president is stand to lose as much being timid during strong economic times as they do being aggressive during weak ones.

Because let's not forget the other side of the "uncertainty" coin. Consumers. Without our confidence to spend, many businesses do not stand to gain. And the behavior of business can actually impact our willingness to spend too.

It's funny how people are more tolerant of lies then *gasp* rudeness.

It's the rules. We can't have any debate if we let it drop to that level, either because Toady won't let us or we can't formulate a coherent, truthful statement between all the jabs. Accept you went too far and move on.

[Phmcw]

Nikov is a treasure trove, collecting all the lies and misinformation that the conservative movement has invented over the years and regurgitating them all over our threads more or less constantly.

Better?

How about removing it from the original post and then don't go that far again?

It's funny how people are more tolerant of lies then *gasp* rudeness.

Yes, and with good reason. I don't care how justified you think they are, I don't want people calling names in this thread.
You calling him a liar is as much as I am willing to tolerate, and I'm not sure that Toady would agree with even that.
Calling him "whore" is unacceptable.

The next time I'll lock the thread.

[kaijyuu]

It's funny how people are more tolerant of lies then *gasp* rudeness.

Why should they be tolerant of either? I'm sorry but attacking people is the worst way to convince them of anything. Spouting off insults does not help your position, and in fact hurts it quite a bit.

This is coming from someone who agrees with you on the issues in question.

[mainiac]

It's the rules. We can't have any debate if we let it drop to that level, either because Toady won't let us or we can't formulate a coherent, truthful statement between all the jabs. Accept you went too far and move on.

And yet thread after thread after thread I've watched be derailed by the same damn lies from Nikov.  Thus any real discussion or education is put on hold as the usual suspects have to come debunk to same damn lies from the same damn person.  Is nobody else insanely tired of this?

[Impending Doom]

You've been given a choice: Retract the statement and continue the debate like a rational, civilised human being, or leave the thread. Your call.

[Phmcw]

It's the rules. We can't have any debate if we let it drop to that level, either because Toady won't let us or we can't formulate a coherent, truthful statement between all the jabs. Accept you went too far and move on.

And yet thread after thread after thread I've watched be derailed by the same damn lies from Nikov.  Thus any real discussion or education is put on hold as the usual suspects have to come debunk to same damn lies from the same damn person.  Is nobody else insanely tired of this?

Well, a bit but those are the common republican opinion, or at least the one expressed by rep politicians.
You can't really say that it is not relevant, or blame him for expressing the point of view of a lot of Americans.

It's sad that the right wing as fallen that low, but you really can't blame Nikov for it.
If you want to avoid that, go to the progressive rage thread : there are only progressive there. You could make a progressive politic thread. But this one is open to all.