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[freeformschooler]

I'd say it's more like the whole house is on fire, the only door is battery operated, and they're using the only batteries to flip channels, complaining loudly about how it took a fire for them to get some time to choose what to watch.

Well done, sir. Well done.

I remain positive that I can find money in the possible coming economic hard times because I made $200 in nearly two weeks. However, being a person coming of age in a time like this is still scary.

[nenjin]

I hate to say it, but I've been gearing up to live in a different America for a while. Mentally and in terms of consumption. Food, the internet and games are the only luxuries I have anymore. And dealing with the fall out in prices from this should we default is.....it's going to suck. I expect we'll see some inflation that modern Americans have never experienced, and I expect business will gouge the fuck out of us just so they can stay alive.

[Vector]

This is why I own clothes as though I won't be able to buy any for the next 20 years, and have bought books with a similar attitude.


Let's just say this, though.  Forgive me this transgression.

Read Michelle Bohmann's (or however you write that) little declaration thing.  You know, the one condemning homosexuality and saying black people should have been grateful to be enslaved.  Add hyperinflation and some bloody bad wars, and the rising Right.  The attacks on women's rights of recent years.

I don't mean to turn this into a derail of some sort.  This isn't a call to come contest or support the idea, just a thought experiment.  And, well, a long-time fear.

[Nadaka]

I am with vector on this one, I really fear a backslide in our society. A new dark age. And this is the first time I have been able to see it happening here and now.

[GlyphGryph]

So, if the government decides they aren't responsible for their debts, can I stop paying them for the debts I owe them?

That would be nice.

If that happened, I could almost see myself coming out of this better than I came in...
(And I know it won't happen, heh)

[nenjin]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/07/29/debt.talks/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

So Boehner's bill passed in the House, with some Republicans opposed and no Dems in support. (218-210, if you care.)

The two key measures that guarantee its defeat from Senate Dems are:

-A constitutional amendment requiring a balanced budget before a debt ceiling increase is extended through 2012

and

-A second debt ceiling increase debate before the 2012 elections, making the current one under debate only good for 6 months.

The first one is something that, under normal conditions, would find Democrat support. But NOW? SERIOUSLY? They want to debate and pass a constitutional amendment as a pre-requisite to passing a temporary, 11th hour bill? Hell, I'm in support of a measure like that, but I'm not willing to debate something as important as a constitutional amendment in a day's fucking time.

The second is just pure bullshit political maneuvering. Those hacks are so focused on 2012 they're willing to let the house come down around their ears because of it. At this point, Dems may have to concede to it. Although there are risks that a temporary increase doesn't send a strong enough signal to credit raters, who will see a temporary fix and on-going argument as just another sign of our long-term financial instability. So Dems may not even be able to accept that.

Still, I can't get over the balls on these guys. I remember riders attached to past debt ceiling increase bills, the kind that are outrageous and have nothing to do with monetary policy. They always fell off in the end. So it's not like they're attaching anti-abortion legislation to it or something.....but the fact these guys think a constitutional amendment is something you casually toss around as a bargaining chip is not only stupid, it's dangerous.

[SalmonGod]

At this point I don't think its brinkmanship anymore, I think we honestly have a House full of reps who either don't care or aren't scared of financial default. They honestly think it's going to be business as usual on August 3rd. I can only assume their constituencies are either rocks, or have rocks for brains, because anyone with an investment or a small business owner who relies on credit or hell, even large businesses, should all be sending them mail going "what the hell are you doing?!?!" Only the guy who is already living in a shack on land they don't own, or a person with a few million safely tucked away in offshore banks, would not be worried about what's going down.

I think the problem is the people with influence in our society all have the freedom to hop in their personal jets and go anywhere they please if the shit hits the fan.  Our lives are dominated by people who may be human beings, but whose lives have absolutely nothing in common with ours.  They do not share our troubles in any capacity.  The only thing they need to worry about is finding themselves in a situation where they have no command over anyone, which isn't likely to happen.

[Phmcw]

Hehehehe , with that bill you're pretty much just as screwed that if they've done nothing. Even if it pass the senate. Seriously look at it...

[Euld]

Can't Obama use a "line item veteo" or something to remove the amendment part?  I'm probably a bit fuzzy on that though, it's been ages since government class in high school...

[Bauglir]

Nope, Supreme Court struck that down in '98.

[Phmcw]

For those who still like Ron Paul...

[Nadaka]

For those who still like Ron Paul...

Yea. I didn't really like him before.

I think I have run out of outrage.

I am just drained.

[SalmonGod]

What's sad is most people I know who are fed up with the two major parties are very drawn to Ron Paul.

[nenjin]

I stopped paying attention to Ron Paul when I realized his simple plan for America involved opting out of the global financial system of which we are the lynch pin. He and others want an apocalyptic change in the way business is done, and they want it done overnight. But let's not get into the motivations behind that, shall we? This shit is already too depressing as is.

It's true we enjoy lower interest rates (and therefore are less punished by taking on debt than any other country in the world) and that's led in the last decade to a gross overuse of the national debt to fund everything from wars to the lowest tax rates Americans have enjoyed for a long time. We enjoy those low interest rates because the dollar is the currency by which all valuation in the world is measured, because it's the most stable.

What needs to happen is we need to stop abusing our cherry spot in the world financial markets and ween ourselves off of both the lower tax rates and the stupid investments we make with money we don't have (defense, hare-brained recovery schemes, entitlements.) That puts us in a position to either continue to fund SS and Medicare, or puts us on more sound financial footing while we debate how to change them.

Polls put public support for tax increases at 60% is (give or take 5%.) Only 1/3rd oppose any sort of tax increase. That to me seems like a clear mandate that the American public, all sectors, can take a little more taxes and do our part to bring stability to government finances. Tax reform would potentially bring in even more. If government meets us halfway by raising the debt ceiling, capping discretionary spending and seriously getting us the hell out of Afghanistan, we can get back to fiscal responsibility in a way that won't up turn the whole damn world. People seem to forget that "fat cats" helped build this country as much as farmers. Only in the last 12 to 13 years have we completely slipped off the financial responsibility wagon, for various reasons. We aren't as far from stability and fiscal responsibility as fire starters want to paint it.

[Phmcw]

That's what is hilarious : financially, the USA are completely sound, because it's a huge, united economy.
You could borrow as much as you need, because you're an AAA economy, and there was no prospect to downgrade it.
Sure, you have a huge imbalance who is bound to fail in some future, but you still have a huge margin to take care of it.

It's just that you political system is so rotten that you are in danger to default for no good reason.