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[Ghills]

All game graphics are symbols, that represent a certain thing or sets of things. Graphical tilesets draw on a shared set of symbols that people all over recognize: houses, walls, doors, beds, etc. This makes understanding the game easier simply because the mental translation of pixels into an object/set of objects follows a familiar and well-trained pathway.

The central problem - and advantage - of CP347 is that it doesn't use the same shared symbol set. That allows for greater flexibility in how the players interpret the game, much like how books generally allow for greater interpretive flexibility than movies.  But it forces players to learn a brand new set of symbols for interacting with the world. That's a huge investment, and there are some people who can't make it (color-blindness, color contrasts causing other problems, people who don't imagine visually and so can't ever see the world, people with poor eyesight who need larger and more distinguishable graphics, etc).

Graphic/titlesets in no way improve the UI. Infact many seem to make it worse with confusing symbols throughout text and defualt icons changed (+/-/gender symbols)....
I gave up playing Kobold Camp because I hated the graphic set, it was confusing and I had to "relearn" what the icons meant.

Graphics do, in fact, improve the interface for a large segment of the population. The fact that you apparently aren't in that population doesn't mean you get to deny their experience.  You find tilesets confusing because you've adopted the alternate set of symbols. That doesn't mean that everyone can, or that everyone should. 

The way Dwarf Fortress is heading an offical tileset will be impossible. How would a tileset draw a randomly generated creature? It would have to use a stock image, now tell me how that defers from an ampersand? Either way the player still has to click on said creature and read it's description.

Knowing whether the monster is made of slime or has fairy wings is beside the point.  Players want to know that it's a monster, as opposed to a pillar, or whatever else will be using the ampersand.  The central problem in the classic example of goat vs goblin isn't that the players can't tell what the hair color is, it's that they can't determine the species of the thing.

The bottom line is that the CP347 tileset doesn't provide vital information for a large segment of DF players. Not providing enough information is an interface problem. It can be remedied in various ways,  including with clear and easy-to-access menus (not present in the current version), but it does need to be remedied somehow so that players can play the game.

[franti]

I don't think DF players are as stupid as you give them credit for. I can look at a colorless 'g' moving around for 5 seconds and tell you whether or not it's a goat, a goblin, a gorlak, or anything else based on where it is and how it moves.
Tilesets take the imagination out if it. DF is like a book you write yourself, if books could drop acid.

[Rex_Nex]

I don't think DF players are as stupid as you give them credit for. I can look at a colorless 'g' moving around for 5 seconds and tell you whether or not it's a goat, a goblin, a gorlak, or anything else based on where it is and how it moves.
Tilesets take the imagination out if it. DF is like a book you write yourself, if books could drop acid.

Not me

[franti]

I don't think DF players are as stupid as you give them credit for. I can look at a colorless 'g' moving around for 5 seconds and tell you whether or not it's a goat, a goblin, a gorlak, or anything else based on where it is and how it moves.
Tilesets take the imagination out if it. DF is like a book you write yourself, if books could drop acid.

Not me

Regardless, pressing 'v' doesn't take a whole lot of time.
Judging by the number of posts on the forum, I think it's safe to say people CAN play the game as-is.

[kaijyuu]

I find it amusing that some are decrying those being smugly superior about using the ascii tileset, whilst themselves being smugly superior about graphical ones.

Stop acting like anything's better than anything else. It all comes down to personal preference; the absolutely minor differences (such as graphical tilesets screwing up the font occasionally) are not worth arguing over.


Personally I think DF should come packed with several tilesets to choose from.

[Gatleos]

Okay, I'll say it one last time: what do you want? What is your suggestion? Is this a thread about improving user-friendliness to new DF players, or a long, dead-horse-beating diatribe about why you should or should not use tilesets?

We're four pages into this thread and you've been asked this question several times, but you still haven't answered. If this is an argument for the sake of itself, just say so.

[Ghills]

I don't think DF players are as stupid as you give them credit for.

I'm not sure where you got stupidity from. I talked about being able to easily adapt to a different set of symbols. It's somewhat like learning a visual language. It's not got much to do with intelligence.

Regardless, pressing 'v' doesn't take a whole lot of time.
Judging by the number of posts on the forum, I think it's safe to say people CAN play the game as-is.

But this thread is about accessibility.  Does a new player know about pressing v? Do they realize that it selects the closest unit? Do they understand how to navigate the v menu to see whatever specific fact they wanted to know?

Also, the number of forum post is a very poor measure of actual DF playing.

1) A small but significant fraction of posters have openly admitted that they come to the forums for the company, and play the game only rarely.

2) A large fraction of the posts are about how the game could/needs to be improved, which militates against the idea that people are playing it as much as they're posting about it.

3) Of the posters who do play DF, a significant fraction of them have admitted to mostly avoiding or outright refusing to use certain parts of the game.

Based on the forums, it's very easy to conclude that people can't, won't or don't like to play the game as-is. This gets philosophically sticky, since we'll pretty quickly get into trying to establish an objective definition of what 'playing the game' means.  But without getting into that quagmire, it's clear that a lot of posters aren't happy with the current DF experience.

I find it amusing that some are decrying those being smugly superior about using the ascii tileset, whilst themselves being smugly superior about graphical ones.

Stop acting like anything's better than anything else. It all comes down to personal preference; the absolutely minor differences (such as graphical tilesets screwing up the font occasionally) are not worth arguing over.

Personally I think DF should come packed with several tilesets to choose from.

Some things are better, in certain circumstances. For the purposes of making DF more accessible, a good case can be made that more symbol-focused tilesets are better. For providing a more imaginative experience, a good case can be made that CP347 tilesets are better. This thread is about ways to make DF more accessible. If you want to talk about ways to make DF more imagination-friendly, start a thread! That would be a great thing to talk about, and it's not nearly as common as a topic as UI-improvements.

I think several standard tilesets would be awesome. It's never going to happen, though, which is why I recommend the Lazy Newb Pack to all and sundry. That's the closest thing we have.

Okay, I'll say it one last time: what do you want? What is your suggestion? Is this a thread about improving user-friendliness to new DF players, or a long, dead-horse-beating diatribe about why you should or should not use tilesets?

We're four pages into this thread and you've been asked this question several times, but you still haven't answered. If this is an argument for the sake of itself, just say so.

I'm not the original poster, but I'm still kind of tired of you demanding that others propose solutions without doing it yourself.

Sometimes, discussions are pointless. And sometimes, people propose solutions and you miss them. And sometimes, all the talk results in a solution being agreed on.

Since nobody on the forums has any power to make any decision about DF whatsoever, this thread was going to be pointless from the start. If you don't like it, why are you posting in this thread?

[ImBocaire]

Given that the original poster's avatar is a troll face and that he's saying things like "Your life would be empty without me. Admit it." I'm getting a sinking feeling about my very participation in this thread.

[Ghills]

Maybe s/he is a troll. It's pretty hard to tell, though.

On a slightly less-serious note, here's some modders moving towards more accessible DF:

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80240.0

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

OK, a very un-serious note.

[ImBocaire]

XD You call that accessible, I call that terrifying.

[franti]

But this thread is about accessibility.  Does a new player know about pressing v? Do they realize that it selects the closest unit? Do they understand how to navigate the v menu to see whatever specific fact they wanted to know?

Yes. They do. The menu on the right side of the screen says Units: V
Pressing V shows the nearest unit.


And there are many, many tilesets. All of them easy to download. You still have to learn the interface regardless of what the icon is, and I don't think a different tileset would've made learning to play any easier for me.

[Gatleos]

Okay, I'll say it one last time: what do you want? What is your suggestion? Is this a thread about improving user-friendliness to new DF players, or a long, dead-horse-beating diatribe about why you should or should not use tilesets?

We're four pages into this thread and you've been asked this question several times, but you still haven't answered. If this is an argument for the sake of itself, just say so.

I'm not the original poster, but I'm still kind of tired of you demanding that others propose solutions without doing it yourself.

Sometimes, discussions are pointless. And sometimes, people propose solutions and you miss them. And sometimes, all the talk results in a solution being agreed on.

Since nobody on the forums has any power to make any decision about DF whatsoever, this thread was going to be pointless from the start. If you don't like it, why are you posting in this thread?

I'm not demanding solutions. I'm asking the OP to clarify what they are proposing, since this thread quickly devolved into an argument unrelated to the original topic.

And I don't need to give my solution, because there isn't a problem. The game is hard to get into, but we have countless easily-accessible and oft-alluded-to resources to help new players out. The wiki documents everything. Video tutorials give step-by-step instructions. We can guide people who ask to be guided, but if someone can't even be bothered to look for help about something they don't understand, there is nothing to be done.

Given that the original poster's avatar is a troll face and that he's saying things like "Your life would be empty without me. Admit it." I'm getting a sinking feeling about my very participation in this thread.

I think the OP was sincere enough.

[franti]

Honestly, this tread is dead and was never really alive. There is no "issue" with the game or tilesets (other than my freaking dwarves never getting off the traction benches). If this game is too dificult, go play Warhammer 40K or My Little Pony or something else along those lines.

[Lancezh]

Given that the original poster's avatar is a troll face and that he's saying things like "Your life would be empty without me. Admit it." I'm getting a sinking feeling about my very participation in this thread.

Give me a break, I've proven enough that I would like to contribute to the game enough, if you dont believe me, click my link in the sig and scan all the videos i made for noobs over countless hours.

Okay, I'll say it one last time: what do you want? What is your suggestion? Is this a thread about improving user-friendliness to new DF players, or a long, dead-horse-beating diatribe about why you should or should not use tilesets?

We're four pages into this thread and you've been asked this question several times, but you still haven't answered. If this is an argument for the sake of itself, just say so.

I already answered that in the very first post i made, i made two suggestions and hoped for more, but it derails into what people dont grasp to understand what i'm trying to achieve. (to make the game more accessible or at least discuss how to do it), yet i see efforts of people who start fairytales, that this means the game gets dumped down or that it is about wether a tileset is better or not.

I think noone said CP437 is crap, all that was said from the tileset users, which i am one of is, give people a choice, and stop questioning wether it helps or not. It helped me, and i wouldnt have played DF without it. That does in NO way imply that CP437 is crap or less worth, for some people it is just an not to overcome hurdle for some it is their choice. You can either accept that or take a seat in my troll cave which i'm not inhabiting at the moment.

My second suggestion was to incorporate a standard save of a pretty standard world embark with standard settings into the game so people dont have to go through the embark screen before they can actually try out the game. So the only thing they could do then is press: "Start Playing" which is something i'm looking for after i installed the game.

But this thread is about accessibility.  Does a new player know about pressing v? Do they realize that it selects the closest unit? Do they understand how to navigate the v menu to see whatever specific fact they wanted to know?

Yes. They do. The menu on the right side of the screen says Units: V
Pressing V shows the nearest unit.


And there are many, many tilesets. All of them easy to download. You still have to learn the interface regardless of what the icon is, and I don't think a different tileset would've made learning to play any easier for me.

You can call me again an idiot but it took me a VERY long time to figure out that there is V to look at details of stuff. And i can tell you why, because i ASSUMED that the letter "k" which i learned soon would show me all the necessary and available data about stuff if there was any, why in the world would i need ANOTHER key for MORE details ?. And assuming is all we CAN do when we learn a game. Ok i'm an idiot, and everyone else who did the same as well. Or you step out of your comfort zone and admit that this is a problem about accessability.

[Dae]

Granted, the UI has lots of room for improvement, but fi we aim at something doable right now, it has to be lightweight, almost to no coding time for Toady and respect his decision of not supporting any third party.

I think the best would still be a big link right next to the download link, preferrably with something like "IMPORTANT : read this if you're a new player !" that would link you not to the LNP but to a wiki page like a more general quickstart page, explaining that players should keep a tab with the wiki open at the side, linking to the LNP if we wish, providing tutorials if we want, explaining they can post in the Gameplay questions forum. Being a wiki page, Toady wouldn't support any 3rd party in particular.

Concerning tutorials, I thought they came with a save, no ? I've never done any of them so... The problem with embedding a save into the game is that it wouldn't be much of a use without help. So perhaps we could ask Toady to embed saves with varying levels of difficulty (mountain / forest with lots of wood and water, evil woodless desert, evil freezing glacier) and then some people could perhaps make tutorials for those maps. But it has to be this way and not the other way around, people making tutorials and then Toady embedding them.

Also, the same for adventure mode would be cool I guess. At the simplest expression, an easy fortress and a strong demigod adventurer would be enough.