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[Jim Groovester]

If he is the Vampire Lord and completely unable to play, then that's still not a reason not to lynch him, because the scumteam can just pick his action for him. That's fairly common practice for mods to do, and I'm pretty sure Meph has done it a few times as well, even though I can't think of any specific examples right now.

If you want some support for this, there's precedent even in a Meph game.

In Paranormal 14, I was scum and had to have ToonyMan and forsaken1111 pick my action because I was gone for some reason. Here's the PM Meph sent us because he was getting impatient.

Well it looks like I'll be investigating JanusTwoFace tonight. I believe Jim is doing our kill, but there was debate on who to kill and the others haven't replied in dopp chat yet.

You have until 5pm Pacific today to get your decisions in. If necessary, one of you can simply issue orders for the group.

And I found another example in Supernatural 1, so it's not like this was a one-off thing:

I will give Joker until 2pm Pacific today, otherwise he is doing nothing. Alternatively, Red can make a decision for him (since he's the Leader)

So, again, how is Azure Sepulchre lurking not a reason to think he's the VL? Nobody's answering my questions, even though they're good and cut through the heart of your terrible arguments.

Jim, I like how you handily ignore all the other reasons not to kill Azure.  Also, with regard to bdthemag, as Crown has so kindly illustrated, the instinct for an unskilled scum player would be to take the Kill. After all, what is your goal but to outnumber Town as quick as you can... and what better way to do it?

You're assuming that an unskilled scum player is going to make good decisions, which is never an assumption you can make.

I'm not going to argue that taking a redirect over the kill was dumb, but that's still not a reason to assume he couldn't be the VL.

Have you ever played a game of mafia before? It's like I'm dealing with a beginner here. I mean, really, how much baseless supposition do you have to pull out of your ass to justify your arguments?

As for the other reasons you raised for why we shouldn't be lynching Azure Sepulchre:

- Obvscum CrownOfFire is being directed to make a big fuss out of NOT voting for AzureSepulcher, so it looks like poorly playing Scum are trying to keep him from being killed, and thus make Azure look like Scum.
- The bulk of the Scum seem to agree with making Azure die, which means he's DEFINITELY NOT the Lord. We need to Lynch the lord, not rely on a Devil's Deal to kill him; too much can go wrong with this plan and leave the Lord alive... or worse.

These are both improvable WIFOM, which is why I ignored them. There's no way to challenge them, besides to point out that they're improvable WIFOM.

Bdthemag: No prerequisits. Unlikely, since took Devils Deal, and for Redirect instead of Kill (scum discuss these things).

Ha ha, yeah right.

Let's assume that Bdthemag is the VL. On Night 1, it would have been just him and Dariush.

And you're going to tell me that they'd make a good decision.

To put what I'm saying simply, what we need to do right now is not gamble on a Devil's Deal to win, nor still be lynching lurkers... your obsession with them borders on the fetishistic, Jim. What we need to do now is some good old fashioned Scumhunting. For now, Extend. Here's the remainder of the facts I've gathered, to accompany my last post.

hurp derp Sure Jim Groovester only likes lynching lurkers.

Poor innocent lurkers like you!!! You still won't say I wasn't wrong, which I guess means I wasn't.

Bitch about me ignoring your reasons, why don't you, when every single fucking post you make completely ignores everything I've said.

VL picks

VL picks

You know, these are great lists. Edge cases justified by WIFOM are exactly the sort of thing we need to move forward in the game.

Or we could keep it simple instead of overthink everything like a bunch of dumbshits who think they're smart.

Let's just lynch Azure Sepulchre. Ignoring him because he's a lurker is dumb if he has a scum team who can send in his actions. (Which there is precedent for in a Meph game, which bears repeating because I don't trust that you'll remember the supporting evidence for one of the main points of this post.)

[JoshuaFH]

To let everyone know, I'm going to be disappearing on the 9th. Moving all the way across the state for my job, and I won't have internet access for an undetermined amount of time.

So you'll see even less of me, basically, and I'll probably require a replacement for my miserable self.

[Solifuge]

The simple reason Azure isn't the VL is that players scummy and not want to lynch him. That's generally a pretty good indicator. Damn, go figure.

Anyway, I'm not going to respond to your shit-slinging, hard as it is. You raise good points about subordinates picking actions, and unskilled players being a possibility. However, your arguments are ASSUMING unskilled players, while I am assuming they have a decent level of competence between them. Dumb cult is going to pick known strong players, and as soon as they get recruited these players are going to start directing things. It's a safer bet for Town to assume they know what they're doing, because to do otherwise opens ourselves up to being taken advantage of... which, to be blunt, is exactly what you want here... and talking down the Scum's competence is the same damn thing you try to do every game that you're Scum.

If you say that analyzing possibilities from likeliest to least likely means following "edge cases", and thoroughly analyzing stats and leads make for "bad scumhunting" then I'm done listening to any of your opinions, because you're clearly wrong and too set in your beliefs to see sense. For all your talk of other people finding their belief first and then trying to justify it with facts, you really do a good job of that yourself. I believe it's called "projecting".

[IronyOwl]

IronyOwl, note that resurrection actually comes AFTER conversion. It's kind of hard to convert a dead guy. So it's impossible for me to be the Lord.

How do you know?

Irony:  If I am the lord, who is the guard?

Is there always a guard? If so, it'd have to be Jim.

On Leaf possibility:  You forget that Josh revealed that a Devil offered him something on N2, meaning any fakeclaim Devil plan would have had to have been made far in advance. 

True. That doesn't impact the "real devil's lying low for some reason" possibility, but it does push the others even further into unlikelihood.

You're also leaving out the chance that you're the lord and MBP is telling the truth.  It does seem unlikely, but it is possible.

I guess.

Max I picked a redirect because I thought it could be useful, just incase someone had a dangerous power they were going to use on someone then I could possibly redirect it.

Wouldn't killing them be simpler?

So, again, how is Azure Sepulchre lurking not a reason to think he's the VL? Nobody's answering my questions, even though they're good and cut through the heart of your terrible arguments.

Your point is good- he can still be the Lord. Your other point- that we should lynch him because of that- is terrible. Several people could be the Lord. Why so eager to go after Azure, the lurker who can't defend himself?

You know, these are great lists. Edge cases justified by WIFOM are exactly the sort of thing we need to move forward in the game.

Or we could keep it simple instead of overthink everything like a bunch of dumbshits who think they're smart.

Let's just lynch Azure Sepulchre. Ignoring him because he's a lurker is dumb if he has a scum team who can send in his actions. (Which there is precedent for in a Meph game, which bears repeating because I don't trust that you'll remember the supporting evidence for one of the main points of this post.)

"Cool lists guys, you fucking suck. Let's just randomlynch instead because you're all dumb."

[ECrownofFire]

IronyOwl, note that resurrection actually comes AFTER conversion. It's kind of hard to convert a dead guy. So it's impossible for me to be the Lord.

How do you know?

Second post in the thread from Meph. He gives the order of night actions.

[Jim Groovester]

Your point is good- he can still be the Lord. Your other point- that we should lynch him because of that- is terrible. Several people could be the Lord. Why so eager to go after Azure, the lurker who can't defend himself?

Don't you mean the lurker who doesn't need defending? Isn't that what you should really be saying? If he is the VL then the scum are fucking golden because he's going to get a free pass. That attitude blows.

"Cool lists guys, you fucking suck. Let's just randomlynch instead because you're all dumb."

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The simple reason Azure isn't the VL is that players scummy and not want to lynch him. That's generally a pretty good indicator. Damn, go figure.

Won't this apply to anybody we decide to lynch? I fail to see how this is a reason at all.

You raise good points about subordinates picking actions, and unskilled players being a possibility. However, your arguments are ASSUMING unskilled players, while I am assuming they have a decent level of competence between them. Dumb cult is going to pick known strong players, and as soon as they get recruited these players are going to start directing things. It's a safer bet for Town to assume they know what they're doing, because to do otherwise opens ourselves up to being taken advantage of... which, to be blunt, is exactly what you want here... and talking down the Scum's competence is the same damn thing you try to do every game that you're Scum.

Yeah, yeah, sure. Fine. That's all good and dandy for anything Night 2 and past. But you're missing the point.

Why assume the two mafia stooges Dariush and Bdthemag are going to make any good decisions during Night 1 when it was just them?

Bdthemag did something dumb as scum, ergo he must not be scum, is not sound reasoning if his scumteam at that point isn't known for brilliant decision making.

and talking down the Scum's competence is the same damn thing you try to do every game that you're Scum.

Prove it, asswipe, because that's not my meta.

If you say that analyzing possibilities from likeliest to least likely means following "edge cases", and thoroughly analyzing stats and leads make for "bad scumhunting" then I'm done listening to any of your opinions, because you're clearly wrong and too set in your beliefs to see sense. For all your talk of other people finding their belief first and then trying to justify it with facts, you really do a good job of that yourself. I believe it's called "projecting".

I wouldn't have a problem with it if it weren't for your "terrible reasoning."

[Max White]

Ok, Jim.
Because not only are you a high potential scum lord, but you have been acting scummy as hell today. You have been doing everything you can to cut down theories that don't work in your favour, and supporting anything that does, but you haven't been doing it with reasoning, you have been puffing out your chest and calling anything you don't like dumb. Your trying to lead the town around with authority, instead of logic.
On top of that, your claim is bullshit. Any half decent scum player can ask the mod about how a role works if they want something to back their false claim. Weak claim is weak, vampire lord is you.
And to top if off, on d2 when Toaster pointed the finger at Daruish, you didn't do a thing about it, instead choosing to push Crown as hard as you could for a mislynch.

Azure: Y U NO CLAIM?

[Max White]

Oh wait, never mind. Somehow I missed the great big 'Replace needed' banner. Well same question to who ever replaces in.

[ECrownofFire]

Unvote.

Jim.

Yep. What do you have to say to that, hmm?

[Jim Groovester]

Ok, Jim.
Because not only are you a high potential scum lord, but you have been acting scummy as hell today. You have been doing everything you can to cut down theories that don't work in your favour, and supporting anything that does, but you haven't been doing it with reasoning, you have been puffing out your chest and calling anything you don't like dumb. Your trying to lead the town around with authority, instead of logic.
On top of that, your claim is bullshit. Any half decent scum player can ask the mod about how a role works if they want something to back their false claim. Weak claim is weak, vampire lord is you.
And to top if off, on d2 when Toaster pointed the finger at Daruish, you didn't do a thing about it, instead choosing to push Crown as hard as you could for a mislynch.

Shame on me for supporting what I think is the best course of action. Really, what a crime.

Bullshit about the reasoning. I've had plenty of it. And there's little answer to improvable bullshit other than to call it what it is, and there's been lots of that lately. Maybe you've noticed?

Unvote.

Jim.

Yep. What do you have to say to that, hmm?

I'd say you're probably scum angling for any town-acceptable mislynch that isn't your Vampire Lord.

[Toaster]

While a Jim lynch is really no big issue, this does bug me:

Unvote.

Jim.

Yep. What do you have to say to that, hmm?

This is an egregious bandwagon.  Seriously, Crown?


Jim:  You've pissed on everyone else's ideas without offering much in the way of your own.  Who are your picks for Lord and cultists?

[Mephansteras]

The Scribe's Tally Sheet
Azure Sepulchre: Jim Groovester, Leafsnail, Toaster
Jim Groovester: ECrownOfFire, Max White, Solifuge
Bdthemag: JoshuaFH


Day ends ~5pm Pacific Today

[Solifuge]

While a Jim lynch is really no big issue, this does bug me:

Unvote.

Jim.

Yep. What do you have to say to that, hmm?

This is an egregious bandwagon.  Seriously, Crown?

If my read on Crown's playstyle is correct, it IS an egregious bandwagon. He's trying to create a sense of doubt, by playing to our assumptions of his scumminess.

Also, in regard to your earlier question of protection options, I'm a Priest with a Res, and thus a bit of a priority target for the Cult. Metagame suggests I'm likely to be an Unpious Priest, so my usefulness is limited (the chance for adding a SK to the mix does not behoove Scum), but I suspect I'm going to be high on their list of converts nevertheless. If they get me and make me raise a Cultist, that would tie up the lynch for two days (one for me, and one for my target). If we don't manage to bag the Lord before that, things could get bad very quickly.


To Leafsnail, and whoever he offers his deal to tonight: (who IS our prime candidate for the offer right now, MaxWhite?)
- In the event that we don't bag the Lord today, Crown is nigh-certain Scum and would be removed upon your acceptance, so we can avoid LYLO. AzureSepulcher, MysteriousBluePuppet, and IronyOwl are all viable kill targets. I feel less good about offing Azure with his inactivity and no opportunity to claim, but it's there.
- In the event that the lynch flips Vampire Lord then we're in the clear, and you can do what you will.

[Jim Groovester]

Jim:  You've pissed on everyone else's ideas without offering much in the way of your own.  Who are your picks for Lord and cultists?

Azure Sepulchre or Bdthemag is the VL. They're the likeliest candidates that don't involve a retarded string of conversions to make happen. We should be lynching one of them today.

Cultists I'm less certain about. I'm starting to think Solifuge might be one. I'm having trouble believing he can believe such terrible reasoning and still be town.

If my read on Crown's playstyle is correct, it IS an egregious bandwagon. He's trying to create a sense of doubt, by playing to our assumptions of his scumminess.

Right:

CrownOfFire doesn't vote Azure Sepulchre --> He must be driving suspicion towards Azure Sepulchre
CrownOfFire votes Jim Groovester --> He must be driving suspicion away from Jim Groovester

How is it that no matter what CrownOfFire does, he always manages to do things that fit into your view of how the game works?

That's called tunneling. It's all the classic syptoms: An unshakable conviction that your target is scum, along with a malleable view of the motive of everyone else's actions so that this conclusion is always true no matter what the evidence says.

It's seven times more likely that he doesn't want to vote Azure Sepulchre because he's the Vampire Lord and hasn't gotten over his newb scum fear of voting his teammates and he's voting me because it's easy mislynch that everybody else agrees on. Why are you settling on the most expedient theory that gets me lynched than the one that's actually correct?

Extend because I'm not the Vampire Lord.

[Solifuge]

Jim, you're either intentionally misrepresenting what I say, or you have the reading comprehension of a kumquat. (Hint hint, it's not the latter).

Everyone sees ECrownOfFire as Scum, and I assume his team and he are fully aware of that. Thus he is using that, making a big to do about how he wasn't going to vote AzureSepulcher, so that the Town thinks "Gee, a crappy Scum player really doesn't want to vote Azure. That must mean he's the Lord after all!". Then he changes things up to vote for you, using the same logic but an inverted process; where he places a vote is meant to make Town think "Gee, a crappy Scum player is putting a blatant bandwagon on Jim. That must mean he's not the Lord after all!".

These arguments follow the same logic; neither contradict. You continue to spin the words of others against them, and try to discredit them by shit-slinging. If you're right about one thing though, it's that I'm thoroughly convinced you are Scum, and nothing you have done has suggested otherwise.

One of you or Azure needs to die today, Jim, and I'd rather go with someone I have reason to suspect than someone who's been entirely neutral due to inactivity. After that, we'll know how to move forward; even in the event that you're not a Lord (and the smaller chance that you're not a Slave), so long as we follow through with the Devil plan, we still take out Crown (thus preventing LYLO), and one of the remaining Lord Suspects of our choice (say AzureSepulchre), leaving us with the remainder to lynch the next day.

Speaking of the Devil Deal, MysteriousBluePuppet, I'm pretty certain that you're our Number 1 choice for accepting it. Your claimed role wins so long as IronyOwl survives, so you have little at stake by sacrificing yourself to kill AzureSepulchre, and keep Irony alive. If you accept, it both clears you, and pretty much clears IronyOwl (since a Cult Leader having a Guardian Angel would be a real dick move on Meph's part, stacking things far in the Cult's favor)

I urge players to not accept Leafsnail's Deal unless he offers it to whom we plan on. As such, Leafsnail, will you be planning to offer the choice to MBP, or someone else? And to your intended target, will you be killing AzureSepulchre/Jim (depending on who doesn't get lynched today)?