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[Vector]

No.

I'm not voting you over your allegations, which didn't even appear until after I'd voted you.  I'm voting you over ... well, frankly, some mistakes, but after that I'm voting you because I want a better idea of your alignment.

I royally fucked up due to not reading the walls and walls and walls of text carefully.  I figured that I'd take the opportunity to check his alignment, because I wasn't sure of it at this point, and hey, if you're voting someone--might as well keep on with the initial press.  Then I caught exactly the same thing you did, which worries me.

[Max White]

You honestly think that I think a vote on you will scare you out of a response?  Despite my asking you to come vote me, if you think I'm scum?  Seriously?  No.  I think you're stupid, but not quite that stupid, and you're on a freight train straight into WIFOM territory.

No, I just think your scum, and you thought if you voted me then I would be too scared to push lest somebody call OMGUS. It is pretty clear cut, no 'do I vote you? Do I not vote you? What do you want me to do?', nope, none of that, just what I want to do, regardless of your vote.

And no, I didn't know that once you started asking me when I'd join a bandwagon, you suspected me.  I thought you were asking about what one generally does in the case of bandwagon situations.

Not exactly, I was just wondering when you would want to find a reason to climb on a bandwagon. Although you wouldn't just climb on a bandwagon, not when it was safe to leave it be, would you? You would only do so when it was in your best interest, and even then you would give reasons, right?

I was asking about when and how you would climb onto a bandwagon, and your trying to say you thought it was just what 'one generally does in the case of bandwagon situations'

The statement about it being the mod's job has to do with an argument we had in the subforum a while ago, about lurkers, prodding, and so on.  We determined that, in order to save games, we'd have the mod prod the inactive chumps so that the rest of the players weren't caught up into reams and reams of unsuccessful pressure-voting and policy lynches.  When you have 5-6 people lurking, it is no longer the job of the players to fix things.

Ask some other old-timers about it, if you'd like.  I recommend Pandarsenic or Leafsnail.

What what that you said before about appeal to authority? Well anyway...
Panda, Leaf, opinions? Do we coheres the lurkers into activity with votes?

I don't object to people trying to stir activity most of the time, no.  I object to you sitting at the end of a three- or four-person bandwagon rather than voting someone you theoretically think is scum.  You want someone to die, you try to kill them.  You make your vote count.

I have some time to take care of Kilakan, or preferably yourself. Come lynch time, my vote will count.

So why the hell are you going along with the vote for Soli to save his ass then?

I haven't saved anybody yet, and I'm not really planning on it either. We have time, I would like to use it to try and stir activity as the game draws close to the end of d1.

I royally fucked up due to not reading the walls and walls and walls of text carefully.  I figured that I'd take the opportunity to check his alignment, because I wasn't sure of it at this point, and hey, if you're voting someone--might as well keep on with the initial press.  Then I caught exactly the same thing you did, which worries me.

This doesn't make sense to me. Why are you telling me your testing me? It looses all affect if they know it is a test, thus why I didn't tell you why I was questioning you.
It's like if a man walked up to you and said 'Hi! I'm going to walk up behind you and tap on your shoulder and say in a stern voice to see how you react!'
It looks like you slipped, and now your trying to cover it up by insisting to everybody you were just testing me. Because if your walking up behind me it must be because you want to tap my shoulder, not slit my throat, right?

[Vector]

No, I thought that if I voted you I would learn something about your alignment.  If you have real allegations, one generally can't call OMGUS (the experts can fabricate "real allegations" as necessary).

Let me get this straight: I voted you, before you expressed any clear suspicion of me, in order to make it so that you couldn't vote me?  And even if I DID notice your questions, I'd be SO scared of you bringing attacks on

a. Maybe the fact that I questioned JoshuaFH meant I was trying to start a bandwagon

or

b. You questioned me about bandwagons.

In what universe does that make sense?  The universe where I started playing two days ago, rather than more than two years ago?  Fucking hell!


Yes, Max White, I thought you were asking me what I think/behave around bandwagons in order to find out what standard behavior/strategy would be.


No, not just testing you, as in "HERE I AM HURR HURR YOU'RE SCUM!  DANCE UNDER THE PRESSURE!  DANCE!!"  It's too late for that sort of bullshit.  Testing you as in "Okay, well, I've got a vote on you already so I'll ask you some questions to find out more about your alignment."

Alignment-testing, not reaction-testing.


You still haven't explained why, now that you've determined that Kilakan "wanted" you to bandwagon, you are voting Solifuge.

Don't ignore my questions.

[Max White]

Let me get this straight: I voted you, before you expressed any clear suspicion of me, in order to make it so that you couldn't vote me?  And even if I DID notice your questions, I'd be SO scared of you bringing attacks on

Well if you get in the first, that always helps your case, right? Accuse them before they accuse you, and all that.

The universe where I started playing two days ago, rather than more than two years ago?  Fucking hell!

What was that appeal thing authority thing again? Although this time it is your own, not others. Because you have been here for two years, that makes you immune to ever being caught for anything?
Your just doing what scum does, puffing out your chest, trying to look as big and bold as possible. Big bad Vector couldn't be scum, she doesn't make mistakes like that! She is just doing an alignment check, she even says so! Sorry, but I'm not buying it.

You still haven't explained why, now that you've determined that Kilakan "wanted" you to bandwagon, you are voting Solifuge.

Don't ignore my questions.

Did I forget to answer this? I thought I have been over it. I want him active, that is why I am voting for him.

[Vector]

I'm asking you to consider precisely what I'd have to be thinking if I were doing what you're accusing me of, and just why that would be logical.  Furthermore, why I would think it would work.

You are telling me that I am voting you in order to preempt your vote, because I anticipated it.  Somehow.

Why.  On earth.  Would that make sense?

I'm not saying I'm so big that I could never get caught for anything.  I'm saying that your allegations are stupid and paranoid, empty of any material but speculation.

And for the last time, because I keep on having to tell you this:

Your speculation is not good enough to lynch over.  I told you this in your first game, and I'm going to keep telling you until you get it.  Bring something concrete to the table.

[Max White]

No, it was LNCP telling me that my first game, that one was fun.
*Sigh*
Fine, I'll worry about you some other time, once some more has happened.

[ECrownofFire]

So why exactly did you create this tie?

Wait, it's tied now? Fuck.

[Jim Groovester]

So why exactly did you create this tie?

Wait, it's tied now? Fuck.

So you acknowledge that there's a problem and you proceed to do precisely nothing about it. Scummy. If you cared as much as you made it look with those five words you'd be acting instead of talking.

Also, you missed some questions.

[ECrownofFire]

Right, the ultimatum was basically "stop helping the newbie or you're scum". It's in the first quote of that one post. He collapsed it in that post (not the quoted one, the one with the quote).

Also, sorry, but I'm pretty damn tired right now. It's all I can manage right now (I even managed to misspell damn at first). I'll be back after I sleep, I suppose.

[Jim Groovester]

And how is that scummy?

At all?

Leafsnail asked you the same question, and, oh, how convenient, you didn't answer him. Because if you're going to vote him for that, you better be damn well able to explain exactly why it's scummy.

One more thing: Why did you completely steal Solifuge's reasons for voting kilakan? Maybe you're scum buddies and you're both really, really lazy.

[Toaster]

Sorry about that.  I couldn't handle the text walls yesterday.

Let's start with Kilakan.

This reasoning on Max is crap.  He's using straw man arguments throughout, without delivering a good attack anywhere.  I specifically want more detail on this part:

Basically I was saying that toaster changes what he said to match what he though Max would like to hear.  Though he still says that Max is buddying but when Max hears that it wasn't his questions that were the problem, he just ignores the buddying part.

Here he backs off his Max case- probably because he realizes it sucks.  He's still working to make Max look bad, however.

Appeal to Authority on an attempt to get more people voting Solifuge.

Here is piggybacking off Vector's reasoning.


Jim:  Why is Solifuge's lurking more lynchworthy than Pandar?  Reference here.

Noted on Kilakan.


Max:  Questions for you:

That's a really bizarre thing to just accept at an answer like that. I said it was a miscommunication, and I meant that. When you said that, I must have thought you meant something else, or I wasn't thinking straight (as mentioned earlier). Then you just accept that interpretation at face value.

From there on you felt privileged to just declare me an activelurker from the rooftops.

I think it's really silly that I'm still defending something I said offhandedly three days ago.

Well yes, it was a little strange that you said yes to conspiring to lurk and bandwagon. I mean I wanted to judge how defensive you were, but instead agreeing with me? And you know, I notice you still haven't explained what you thought you were agreeing too. I give you every chance to explain yourself, and you just put your fingers in your ears and yell that I am wrong even louder.
But what ever, enough people seem to think you mean something else for me to go along with it for now. They can't all be scum trying to protect you, can they? Hopefully not. Still if it comes to lynching you or anybody else right now, you are it.

Can you expand on that last sentence?  Your next vote was on Kilakan, not Josh; yet you're threatening Josh here.

Josh I still think is scum. Maybe one day I can prove it...

What are you doing to do so?


Vector:  As a couple of others pointed out, this post was based on almost complete misconception, but you hang your vote on him.  Did you realize at the time you were tying the votes?   What was the point of your "you can no longer accuse me of bandwagoning right now" comment?


On Crown tying the vote:

By my count, he actually untied it:

Spoiler: Unofficial Vote Count (click to show/hide)

Dariush: JoshuaFH
JoshuaFH: Dariush, Jokerman-EXE
kilakan: lordnincompoop, Solifuge, Toaster, CrownofFire
Max White: Pandarsenic, Vector
Pandarsenic: Leafsnail
Solifuge: Jim Groovester, kilakan, Max White

In any case, Crown, you'll need to do better than a cardboard case on Kilakan.  Ideally, you give some other scum suspects.


Lastly, back to Jim:  Updated read on Max is still leaning neutral to town, mostly for lack of anything scummy and that he seems to come by his arguments honestly, other than the point regarding Josh.


If you're going to yell about lurkers, don't forget Jokerman.  RVS is long over, bubba!

[Vector]

Wait, I didn't tie the votes, did I?  I had no idea what the vote count was at the time, but I don't think there was only two votes on anyone else.

In any case, if I did, I had absolutely no idea I was doing it.  For now, I need to unvote and reconsider, because the main thread I thought I found post-vote seems clear.


The "you can't accuse me of bandwagoning, haha!" thing was again because I thought that:

a. Max White had been voted by a lot of people (false)
b. He was asking me about when I would bandwagon (true)
c. He was asking me when I would bandwagon in order to delegitimize the votes on him (false, but scum's done this to me enough times that, given a., it seemed like a reasonable assumption)

I was saying: Here I am, performing a non-bandwagoning vote with original reason on the stack!  You can't delegitimize me or anyone else!  Trololololo!

I tend to be a bit of a jerk when I catch people trying to use my knowledge on their situations.  So, it was a kind of rubbing things in his face sort of deal.

[Jim Groovester]

Jim:  Why is Solifuge's lurking more lynchworthy than Pandar?  Reference here.

I'm not after Solifuge just for his lurking.

I'm also after him because of his terrible vote on kilakan.

I've outlined my reasons most recently here.

If I could shoot them both I would and I would be very happy about it.

This reasoning on Max is crap.

You actually read those? I skimmed over them because Max White and kilakan arguing about how good Max White's questions were looked like a waste of their time and a waste of mine.

Is the stuff in there really worth voting over? It looks a lot like quibbling over pointless minutiae instead of anything really scummy.

Lastly, back to Jim:  Updated read on Max is still leaning neutral to town, mostly for lack of anything scummy and that he seems to come by his arguments honestly, other than the point regarding Josh.

What about Max White voting Vector because she voted him so he couldn't vote her back (his words)?

[Vector]

Wait, Toaster, what makes you think I tied the vote?

[Mephansteras]

The Scribe's Tally Sheet
Dariush: JoshuaFH
JoshuaFH: Dariush, Jokerman-EXE
kilakan: CrownOfFire, lordnincompoop, Solifuge, Toaster
Max White: Pandarsenic
Pandarsenic: Leafsnail
Solifuge: Jim Groovester, kilakan, Max White


Day ends ~5pm Pacific Monday