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[Max White]

Last time I had to reply to multiple posts, things got unreasonably long. I think I will split this into two posts, for coherency sake.

Mafia requires concentration and thought which I simply didn't have time for yesterday. Today, on the other hand...

Good. Stay active, this is a game remember? It isn't any fun if you never play, after all! Unvote.

That's a really bizarre thing to just accept at an answer like that. I said it was a miscommunication, and I meant that. When you said that, I must have thought you meant something else, or I wasn't thinking straight (as mentioned earlier). Then you just accept that interpretation at face value.

From there on you felt privileged to just declare me an activelurker from the rooftops.

I think it's really silly that I'm still defending something I said offhandedly three days ago.

Well yes, it was a little strange that you said yes to conspiring to lurk and bandwagon. I mean I wanted to judge how defensive you were, but instead agreeing with me? And you know, I notice you still haven't explained what you thought you were agreeing too. I give you every chance to explain yourself, and you just put your fingers in your ears and yell that I am wrong even louder.
But what ever, enough people seem to think you mean something else for me to go along with it for now. They can't all be scum trying to protect you, can they? Hopefully not. Still if it comes to lynching you or anybody else right now, you are it.

FTR: Looking through the archives is also "seeking information".

True, but it is slow and painful compared to just asking somebody. I was assuming Leaf would know what games he had played, so crawling through every game looking for him would be a waste of time and effort.

As far as I can see, "her play changes depending on her mood" isn't very useful to you at all. And how did the answer say anything about how she tends to feel when playing certain roles?

Well no, that alone isn't very helpful, but the fact that she prefers one role sometimes and another other times provides contrast between town Vector and scum Vector. Contrast is good, helps with reads.

I'm going to say that I think Max White is town because he tends to do this thing where he's bending people's words and just cannot understand what the hell he's doing wrong as that alignment.  He doesn't really know how to scumhunt and gets over-excited about little, trumped up causes.

And I love you too Vector. 

Before I get onto Kilakan's response...
JoshuaFH: Lots of defending yourself, not much else. Who is your first pick? Any reasons?
Kilakan: Would you ever try to lynch somebody just for fun, perhaps because of meta-game relations?
Jake: I sure hope we didn't scare you off! What are your thoughts so far?
Vector: So, when is a bandwagon a bandwagon, enough at least to look attractive to scum? Two, three votes? Maybe four? I realise the number of players in the game would matter, so for today.

[Max White]

See I don't see how you getting a 'wealth of useful tips' as an opening question, a good question.  You aren't pressuring him at all, just asking how to play this type of game.  It doesn't tell you anything about him, or any hint as to his alignment.  Heck it doesn't even tell you how to expect him to act, just that the little known about the roles can be overcome by reading previous games.

Knowing about the game type is useful. No, I was not pressuring him, I was looking for advice from him.

Exactly her play style changes depending on her mood you already know that, so a question like this just tells you how she would react as she is feeling at the moment she answers the question.  How she feels to me seems that it wouldn't have much help to you, unless you also know her well enough to tell how she reacts when she is feeling that way.  After she told you what she prefers (which according to her is equally over time) you didn't follow up, push it, give a secondary question, nothing!  Frankly a BAD question is one that you can't ask a second question about the answer, coupled with the fact that what she gave you was entirely situational while keeping you from knowing the situation since you didn't ask particulars, it was crap.  It told you nothing useful and even when you could get something useful by pushing it you decided to completely ignore it.  Instead you rolled on to Joshua, looks to me like you were swinging for an easy lynch.

Well your right, I need to know how she reactions, and now I know a little more about that, thanks to that question.
Also, let's say I ask somebody if they plan to drive a car, and plan to follow up by asking what colour car. If they tell me they don't drive a car, then there goes the follow up! Not asking a follow up just means I was happy with the answer given.

Rather snarky response boy-o.  I don't see how you knowing he is rather new could be classified as a good opening question, it doesn't pressure, attack or anything.  It's just making talk for the sake of talk.

You still don't get why understanding how somebody will act is useful, do you?

It's useful if you are scum, so you know how to act to not draw his attention.  Don't see how it would be useful to a town player.

Right now, who is Panda voting for? And how much have some people been lurking? He said himself he isn't sure I am scum, yet he chooses me over the lurkers... Basically the opposite of what he said he would do. When somebody says they will do something, and then does the exact opposite, I dare say they are incriminating themselves.
That question is incriminating him right now.

Fine nice decent active-lurking question.  Very sweet and kind and completely pointless other then making him feel welcome by you.

I would much rather him feel welcome than unwanted. After my first game I was ready to pack up and leave the forum, but some friendly comments convinced me to stay. Forgive me for having the soft heart of a human.

Ha, so you think that just because he said oh wait no the statements, when you asked him if he meant the statements wasn't just him trying to say what he thought you would accept?  It's a contradiction because he changes what he said, he started saying 'questions and then changed to oh no not the questions, I meant the statement.'  He flip-flops on what he means.  Maybe you should pay a little more attention and stop just thinking what you want to think

Kilakan, go read the first post. Were the questions themselves buddying? You need to learn that correcting a mistake and flip-flopping are not the same thing.

[Leafsnail]

Meanwhile, voting Pandarsenic for pressure has done jack shit (just like Pandarsenic!), so I'm going to unvote Pandarsenic and vote Solifuge.

Woah woah woah woah woah.  Your pressure "didn't work" so... you just unvote him?  What kind of pressure do you think you can exert if you're clearly bluffing with every vote?

[Vector]

A bandwagon vote is a vote in which someone votes someone who is already being voted with no new reasons.

I would say it starts being a bandwagon (thus tending to appeal bandwagon votes) when the stack hits three, almost no matter the game size.

What, trying to figure out when you can call what's happening against you a bandwagon, and thus de-legitimize it?  Don't try.

[Mephansteras]

The Scribe's Tally Sheet
Dariush: JoshuaFH
JoshuaFH: Dariush, Jokerman-EXE
kilakan: Solifuge, Toaster
Max White: kilakan, Pandarsenic
Pandarsenic: Leafsnail
Solifuge: Jim Groovester, Vector


Day ends ~5pm Pacific Today

[Jim Groovester]

Meanwhile, voting Pandarsenic for pressure has done jack shit (just like Pandarsenic!), so I'm going to unvote Pandarsenic and vote Solifuge.

Woah woah woah woah woah.  Your pressure "didn't work" so... you just unvote him?  What kind of pressure do you think you can exert if you're clearly bluffing with every vote?

The deadline's approaching so I'm changing my vote from pressure to lynch. Pandarsenic's doing a fantastic job of a being a piece of shit active lurker but I'd rather roast Solifuge's ass for lurking than Pandarsenic's.

Don't be mad just because I jumped off your target to my own.

And have you seen Solifuge's vote? Tell me it's not crappy and copypasted straight from what Max White said.

Max White, why aren't you voting anybody, and why isn't it Solifuge? Don't tell me his lurking hasn't got you nervous.

[jakeread1]

Well toaster and max I actually forgot about this, and 3 other things. My memory is HORRIBLE. But I'm back and it's time to Ask stupid questions and get voted root out scum!

First can someone tell me what band wagoning is?

[kilakan]

Well toaster and max I actually forgot about this, and 3 other things. My memory is HORRIBLE. But I'm back and it's time to Ask stupid questions and get voted root out scum!

First can someone tell me what band wagoning is?

..... How do you know those other two forgot about this?  I see no mention of them saying so here, so the only thing I can see is that you have a separate chat for the three of you scum.

[kilakan]

nevermind misread.  I thought he said toaster max and I.

[Jim Groovester]

First can someone tell me what band wagoning is?

It's when you vote for a player solely because he has lots of votes. It's a tactic designed to hide yourself by borrowing others' opinions so you don't have to scumhunt on your own.

I play tutor in Beginner's Mafias. This is not a Beginner's Mafia. Better get up to speed, nubface.

[kilakan]

See I don't see how you getting a 'wealth of useful tips' as an opening question, a good question.  You aren't pressuring him at all, just asking how to play this type of game.  It doesn't tell you anything about him, or any hint as to his alignment.  Heck it doesn't even tell you how to expect him to act, just that the little known about the roles can be overcome by reading previous games.

Knowing about the game type is useful. No, I was not pressuring him, I was looking for advice from him.

Ok then fine, you were just asking how to play this mod.  Then it's a decent question for learning about the game.  Not a good question that is relevant to scum hunting.

Exactly her play style changes depending on her mood you already know that, so a question like this just tells you how she would react as she is feeling at the moment she answers the question.  How she feels to me seems that it wouldn't have much help to you, unless you also know her well enough to tell how she reacts when she is feeling that way.  After she told you what she prefers (which according to her is equally over time) you didn't follow up, push it, give a secondary question, nothing!  Frankly a BAD question is one that you can't ask a second question about the answer, coupled with the fact that what she gave you was entirely situational while keeping you from knowing the situation since you didn't ask particulars, it was crap.  It told you nothing useful and even when you could get something useful by pushing it you decided to completely ignore it.  Instead you rolled on to Joshua, looks to me like you were swinging for an easy lynch.

Well your right, I need to know how she reactions, and now I know a little more about that, thanks to that question.
Also, let's say I ask somebody if they plan to drive a car, and plan to follow up by asking what colour car. If they tell me they don't drive a car, then there goes the follow up! Not asking a follow up just means I was happy with the answer given.

No but you have to be flexible you don't lay down a question that only one particular answer could lead to your second question.  For instance if they said no they don't drive, then a second question is "Well why do you not drive a car?".  You learned a little bit about her, but you could have easily pushed it to refine your view, you didn't bother.  For instance a second question could of had a situational what-if type question, then you know a bit more about how she would change her reactions in that setting. 

Rather snarky response boy-o.  I don't see how you knowing he is rather new could be classified as a good opening question, it doesn't pressure, attack or anything.  It's just making talk for the sake of talk.

You still don't get why understanding how somebody will act is useful, do you?

I perfectly understand it, but the fact remains just knowing someone is new doesn't mean that you know what type of new mistakes they could make.

It's useful if you are scum, so you know how to act to not draw his attention.  Don't see how it would be useful to a town player.

Right now, who is Panda voting for? And how much have some people been lurking? He said himself he isn't sure I am scum, yet he chooses me over the lurkers... Basically the opposite of what he said he would do. When somebody says they will do something, and then does the exact opposite, I dare say they are incriminating themselves.
That question is incriminating him right now.

Good, you think that someone changing their opinion after learning more about the people in the game is incriminating.  If you think that is incriminating him and it's not just because his vote is on you, why are you not attacking him for it?

Fine nice decent active-lurking question.  Very sweet and kind and completely pointless other then making him feel welcome by you.

I would much rather him feel welcome than unwanted. After my first game I was ready to pack up and leave the forum, but some friendly comments convinced me to stay. Forgive me for having the soft heart of a human.

Fine enough, though that question could fit the context of buddying that the person I mentioned flip-floped on, but fine.

Ha, so you think that just because he said oh wait no the statements, when you asked him if he meant the statements wasn't just him trying to say what he thought you would accept?  It's a contradiction because he changes what he said, he started saying 'questions and then changed to oh no not the questions, I meant the statement.'  He flip-flops on what he means.  Maybe you should pay a little more attention and stop just thinking what you want to think

Kilakan, go read the first post. Were the questions themselves buddying? You need to learn that correcting a mistake and flip-flopping are not the same thing.

See cause I thought he was initially talking about the question that you tried to make the noob feel welcome with.  Also I know that correcting a mistake is different, but it didn't read like he was correcting himself, it read like he was saying what he thought you wanted to hear.

Kilakan: Would you ever try to lynch somebody just for fun, perhaps because of meta-game relations?

Hahah no of course I wouldn't, I play to win, so I lynch who I think would most likely be scum.  Don't flatter yourself MaxWhite, I don't hate you and I wouldn't try and kill you just for a laugh.

Either way I am not convinced you are scum enough to be lynched, and we are damn close to a no-lynch so Unvote
Solifuge-I happen to be a very good fan of the lynch-all-lurkers policy.  You attack me with shit all reasoning, say more in a bit twice in a row and only deliver once.  Before that you said yourself you were content to sit back and watch

Anyway, I hate to sit back and watch, but I'm going to for a bit longer. Not even posing a silly question, I'm afraid. =(

And you have all of three very small posts so far.  I think you should hang, because you are lurking insanely so far, fail to deliver on promises, and don't even try to propose a good attack when you are here.  I'd like to be able to have more to go on but the problem with lurkers is that they don't actually give you anything.

In short, the reasons for his vote are flawed and he borrows Max White's language against kilakan verbatim (which is also flawed).

Jim-Would you mind explaining the underlined part, I am unclear as to the meaning of the word verbatim.

[Jim Groovester]

Verbatim - word for word.

So he bandwagons you and then you just shrug it off, say it could be newbie but you aren't sure and then go on to give him advice?  Max white this rings of you attempting to protect him by calling him out as a newbie, and then handing out game advice to him as if he actually is.  Let him learn the god damn game in a beginners Mafia, unless you are partnered with him and want to keep him alive while teaching him to play.

Kilakan, he is a newbie. Read the pregame talk, this is the first game he has ever played.
Also, did you just try to put an ultimatum over my head that I either join you in voting for him, or I must be he's partner?

Max White calls it an ultimatum.

It's kilakan who earns my suspicion, though. Headstrong charge into a vote, putting down all the pressure... only to get into a tussle with MaxWhite, laying down an ultimatum for Max to agree with him or be Scum. After this, Kilakan gets called out and instead of continuing to fight for his argument, he utterly collapses, apologizing all along the way. He's been silent since.

Solifuge calls it an ultimatum.

It's not even an ultimatum anyway, so it's pretty terrible for Solifuge to just borrow somebody else's language for his vote when it's dead wrong anyway.

I asked Solifuge several questions about his vote here which I can turn into accusations at the drop of a hat. He piggybacks off of Max White against Kilakan, and then he makes a bunch of errors, like saying kilakan was silent when he really wasn't.

It looked to me like all he wanted to do was throw down a vote to keep the bloodhounds off his trail for a little bit, without actually taking the time to figure out if the reasons were any good at all.

[lordnincompoop]

My vote goes to kilakan. My case is below and in my previous posts. I don't really mind tying the votes for another few hours, because chances are someone'll read this.

Before that he was already getting a bit touchy about the subject of questions, but has yet to actually say that 'he' thinks they are good.

Why is this relevant?

It's a transition, from trying to be cool, to becoming incredibly solid and defensive on the subject of his questions.

Well, wouldn't you be defensive when attacked? I don't really see why this is that special to you.

Before that he is saying that he always gets told his questions are useless and shrugs it off.

Okay. What do you think about it?

I think that at that point he was attempting to maintain his composure on a touchy subject, and arguing that point would make him lose that composure so he let it slide.

Right. That's an amazing tell you found there - let me change my vote right away.

MaxWhite-Tell us what merits you think there are in each particular question that make them 'good'.

This is, for the most part, directly derived from Leafsnail's argument. Noted.

What makes Leafsnail's point voteworthy for you? Mind providing some reasons of your own as to why the questions are bad?

See I don't really think they are overly bad or really good.  In my opinion they are middle road, and I wanted to hear from Max what he wanted from each question.  Judging by the fact that he only pursued the crownofFire line of questions tells me that he didn't expect all that much from them.  At least he didn't plan on having second questions to each of them.

First off, I'll point out how you talked around the questions but neglected to actually reply with what I asked for. You haven't supplied an original reason, you didn't tell me how these "bad" questions are lynchworthy, and what's more, you just rescinded your primary argument.

Secondly, your lynch vote, and let me quote it, said "Tell us what merits you think there are in each particular question that make them 'good'." Now, this very clearly shows that you don't think they're "middle road". And since you voted on that specific argument, you clearly feel strongly for it - that they are "overly bad". You then repeat and argue this point several times in later posts, so you've got some commitment. I wouldn't call that the words of a man who really believes in the quote I'm replying to.

Thirdly, despite all your conviction, when I just prod you gently for it, your entire position falls apart. Not good.

So since he didn't put enough thought into the questions to actually be able to push more then one of them, I'd say the questions were not all that good and mainly to make it look like he was very active right at the start.

Where did I hear this before? Oh, right, it's just a rehash of Leafsnail's posts with a tacked-on activelurking argument at the end.

So, in conclusion, you don't actually have anything, do you? You're just rolling with an easy lynch - an entire half (five sixths in spirit) of your argument is a rehash, and that half fell apart. Leaving you what, exactly? "Oh, he lost his cool a bit when he fended off Leafsnail" is not a case.

Not only that, but you haven't had a shot at anyone else today. This is everything noteworthy you have, none of it original. Nothing.


Now, I wasn't accounting for this, but I'll take your shitty Solifuge case apart too.

Either way I am not convinced you are scum enough to be lynched, and we are damn close to a no-lynch so Unvote

Why aren't you convinced? And why change now, if you weren't to begin with?

Solifuge-I happen to be a very good fan of the lynch-all-lurkers policy.  You attack me with shit all reasoning, say more in a bit twice in a row and only deliver once.  Before that you said yourself you were content to sit back and watch

So you change from a lynch vote to an 11th hour policy vote, in D1 even. Real smart, scumface.

Additionally, this is a straight rip from Jim Groovester coupled with an OMGUS.

Anyway, I hate to sit back and watch, but I'm going to for a bit longer. Not even posing a silly question, I'm afraid. =(

And you have all of three very small posts so far.  I think you should hang, because you are lurking insanely so far, fail to deliver on promises, and don't even try to propose a good attack when you are here.  I'd like to be able to have more to go on but the problem with lurkers is that they don't actually give you anything.

So you're content to go on "nothing" instead of what you already have. You're not putting up a lot of compelling reasons, boy.


In short, go hang. I'll be there to take the head as a souvenir.

In short, the reasons for his vote are flawed and he borrows Max White's language against kilakan verbatim (which is also flawed).

Jim-Would you mind explaining the underlined part, I am unclear as to the meaning of the word verbatim.

Word for word.

[Mephansteras]

The Scribe's Tally Sheet
Dariush: JoshuaFH
JoshuaFH: Dariush, Jokerman-EXE
kilakan: lordnincompoop, Solifuge, Toaster
Max White: Pandarsenic
Pandarsenic: Leafsnail
Solifuge: Jim Groovester, kilakan, Vector


Day ends in ~2.5 hours

[Jim Groovester]

My vote goes to kilakan. My case is below and in my previous posts. I don't really mind tying the votes for another few hours, because chances are someone'll read this.

Oh, goody.

Exactly what the game needed. Somebody to rescue the unrepentant lurker from the lynch and tie the vote to force a no-lynch.

Great work. Fantastic work.

You know what? Let's write that down. lordnincompoop decided to rescue Solifuge, a player who's very deliberately and flagrantly lurking, from the lynch. Come Day 2, I hope everybody remembers this.

Additionally, this is a straight rip from Jim Groovester coupled with an OMGUS.

If he's ripping me off, then what do you think about my arguments against Solifuge, Mr. Scumbuddy Rescuer?