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Author Topic: Supernatural Mafia 4 - Game Over! Demonic Victory  (Read 280102 times)

kilakan

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 4 - Supernatural creatures hate Barons
« Reply #180 on: August 04, 2011, 08:33:33 am »

Kilakan:
Solifuge-Give me a fucking decent argument scum instead of just laying down a vote off-hand without having read everything and then pissing off for 3 hours.

This is an awfully emotional response to a vote that didn't have much force.  Did he hit a nerve?  You've certainly been spewing a lot of bile this game.
Nope, just happen to be like that.  It was also to see if he actually would deliver on his promise of more in a bit.  So far he hasn't, which is pretty odd to me since he accused me of becoming quiet when my arguments were challenged.  Of course it's only been 18 hours now. 
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kilakan

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 4 - Supernatural creatures hate Barons
« Reply #181 on: August 04, 2011, 08:41:47 am »

Also  fyi I can't respond to Max's replies at the moment, I'm at work.  I'll be home in 8 hours or so.
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Dariush

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 4 - Supernatural creatures hate Barons
« Reply #182 on: August 04, 2011, 10:05:49 am »

Dariush: Care to guess who only has two posts since the thread started? If you guessed lordnincompoop you would be right, and he still has twice the number of posts you have! Although the main difference is that when I check he's post history, he's last two posts have both been in this thread, so it looks like what little time he has on bay12, he uses to keep up with the game. Your post history, on the other hand, shows that you have time to spend in other threads, so why not here?
Mafia requires concentration and thought which I simply didn't have time for yesterday. Today, on the other hand...

Joshua, my gut tells me you're scum. And here's why:

You open the game with a useless leading question to Vector.

You call me out on being absent without actually checking my usual posting times.

And now you spend more time explaining how nervous you are after a long period of not playing.

Why does it look like you're simply trying to get through the day unbothered, explaining it by that you're rusty?

Vector, kilikan and Max are probably town.  Jokerman-EXE is probably scum.
Nice blanket statement. Also, after a long argument with Max you suddenly shove him into town category. Care to elaborate?

JoshuaFH

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 4 - Supernatural creatures hate Barons
« Reply #183 on: August 04, 2011, 01:08:56 pm »

So you will just sort of hang around until after the RVS, once some suspects come into light?
Is that what your trying to say? It reads that way to me, but I would hate to misquote you.

Yes, that what I'm trying to say.
So you agreed to this statement, no way to deny this one, so let's break down the statement.

That's a really bizarre thing to just accept at an answer like that. I said it was a miscommunication, and I meant that. When you said that, I must have thought you meant something else, or I wasn't thinking straight (as mentioned earlier). Then you just accept that interpretation at face value.

From there on you felt privileged to just declare me an activelurker from the rooftops.

I think it's really silly that I'm still defending something I said offhandedly three days ago.

Dariush: Care to guess who only has two posts since the thread started? If you guessed lordnincompoop you would be right, and he still has twice the number of posts you have! Although the main difference is that when I check he's post history, he's last two posts have both been in this thread, so it looks like what little time he has on bay12, he uses to keep up with the game. Your post history, on the other hand, shows that you have time to spend in other threads, so why not here?
Mafia requires concentration and thought which I simply didn't have time for yesterday. Today, on the other hand...

Joshua, my gut tells me you're scum. And here's why:

1.You open the game with a useless leading question to Vector.

2.You call me out on being absent without actually checking my usual posting times.

3.And now you spend more time explaining how nervous you are after a long period of not playing.

4.Why does it look like you're simply trying to get through the day unbothered, explaining it by that you're rusty?

I'm so glad you could finally join us. I've numbered my answers to their respective question.

1. I did... during the RVS. I'm not sure how much weight you apply to this stage of the game. I don't apply a great deal.

2. You briefly, vaguely mentioned your posting times. I'm not sure exactly how far into the past/future you are relative to me, with timezones concerned, but you posted once on Monday, and then again three days later. Concentration or no, that's an awfully large gap.

3. After being questioned to sate the endless pedantry that some people concern themselves with.

4. I don't know, that's how you're choosing to interpret it afterall.

Your gut is not well-informed my friend.
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Dariush

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 4 - Supernatural creatures hate Barons
« Reply #184 on: August 04, 2011, 02:09:53 pm »

1. I did... during the RVS. I'm not sure how much weight you apply to this stage of the game. I don't apply a great deal.
Yes, it was RVS. So what? You didn't actually explain your behaviour.
2. You briefly, vaguely mentioned your posting times. I'm not sure exactly how far into the past/future you are relative to me, with timezones concerned, but you posted once on Monday, and then again three days later. Concentration or no, that's an awfully large gap.
It was two days and not three and in any case if you vote for me eight hours from day start and don't even provide a question, you should at least check your facts.
3. After being questioned to sate the endless pedantry that some people concern themselves with.
Except you always mentioned it without prompting, except the last time, when Jim unvoted you. Overdefensiveness much?

lordnincompoop

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 4 - Supernatural creatures hate Barons
« Reply #185 on: August 04, 2011, 03:12:56 pm »

Before that he was already getting a bit touchy about the subject of questions, but has yet to actually say that 'he' thinks they are good.

Why is this relevant?

Before that he is saying that he always gets told his questions are useless and shrugs it off.

Okay. What do you think about it?

MaxWhite-Tell us what merits you think there are in each particular question that make them 'good'.

This is, for the most part, directly derived from Leafsnail's argument. Noted.

What makes Leafsnail's point voteworthy for you? Mind providing some reasons of your own as to why the questions are bad?

Max:  Why do you open RVS with buddying questions?
Wait, were the questions buddying, or the statements that went before them? I mean I come here to have fun, so I would rather be nice and sociable to the others playing, even if I am willing to hang their scummy ass, so the opening statements were friendly because I like a friendly game full of backstabbing.
Although if your sure it is the questions your talking about, I don't see it, could you clarify?
Interesting what he says about your opening questions here.

Max:  Your questions were fine this time IMO.  I think your style puts people off (this is a game of suspicion, lying, and distrust, not hugs and friendship) and draws attention.
Well that is a breakthrough! I don’t see why I can’t be all hugs and smiles and still suspect people. But still, now that we have a second opinion.
And then goes on to say that your questions are fine.  Now in between these he does say that he was using it to judge your defensiveness, but frankly it didn't hit you as odd that he would go back and complement you after saying that your questions were buddying.  It's also odd that when you ask if he meant the statements were buddying he says yes but you don't bother saying anything about that.

This is pretty incoherent. Could you clean it up for me a tad?

Now, maybe you're not setting up a preemptive defense of yourself, but it certainly looks that way. You're not some green, bright-eyed newbie so I can't just ignore it for that reason, and I'm not sure I buy that you're so completely out of it that you'd do something like this while you're remembering how to play mafia.

You can understand how a paranoid, experienced scumhunter like myself could look at what you did and be extremely leery of it, can't you?

I yes, I can understand it. I'm not so unreasonable.

I suppose I got carried away, in that I wanted to set up a defense, but not in the way you describe, an emotional defense. I wanted to put up a front, so that if I made a silly mistake and got MISlynched, then I wouldn't be ostracized. Such is the fragility of my poor ego. It was a thing that got in the way of rational thought, I can agree with that.

So, are you just going to keep apologising for it, or are you actually going to start doing something useful now? If I'm not mistaken, your Dariush vote was at RVS.

As far as I can tell he gave a response to your question and then you shoved the words in his mouth while voting him.  So I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.
If I shoved the word in he's mouth, he took them happily. He agreeded with both points before I voted for him. He had a chance to defend himself before I voted for him, and he didn't take it, so if he now thinks I am putting words into he's mouth, it is clearly because he dosn't like the vote I put on him.

Well, why did you just contrive evidence to make your point instead of finding something valid, then? I mean, since you aren't directly challenging that fact, you must agree that you did it, no?

We're on a forum.  That allows you to look at old threads (indeed, that's how I worked out which game it was).
It is a lot easier to ask you what game you were in than to go through every mafia game, check the player list and roles, and check when you joined. When you want to know something about a player, why not ask? I wanted to know what game you had last played as town, so I asked. But for some reason you seem to object to me seeking information.

FTR: Looking through the archives is also "seeking information".

Vector: Good morning! I don't think I have ever asked you, do you enjoy playing as scum, or town more? Do you like to hunt or be hunted?
Vectors play tends to change depending on her mood. I wanted to know a little more about the relation there. Knowing how she feels playing as town and scum is handy .

As far as I can see, "her play changes depending on her mood" isn't very useful to you at all. And how did the answer say anything about how she tends to feel when playing certain roles?

Firstly: I'd like everyone to look at Pandarsenic's contributions.  Tell me they're not clear activelurking and very typical of Pandarsenic scum in particular.

So, uh, how is that different from passive, activelurking Pandarsenic town?

Joshua, my gut tells me you're scum. And here's why:

You open the game with a useless leading question to Vector.

You call me out on being absent without actually checking my usual posting times.

And now you spend more time explaining how nervous you are after a long period of not playing.

Why does it look like you're simply trying to get through the day unbothered, explaining it by that you're rusty?

How are any of these things decent scumtells to you?
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Leafsnail

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 4 - Supernatural creatures hate Barons
« Reply #186 on: August 04, 2011, 03:33:50 pm »

Is there anything I should be paying attention in the both of yours arguments or is it as useless as I think it is?
It's useless, that's why I shut it down.

Yes, yes, this is what I'm looking for.

Although with the depth of your questioning I was hoping you could also explain how.
There's a degree to which I do not want to explain how to appear town when answering my questions, since that would seriously undermine future reads.  It's to do with response to pressure and whether your first priority is to defend yourself from an attack.

Nice blanket statement. Also, after a long argument with Max you suddenly shove him into town category. Care to elaborate?
I don't see how saying my reads on specific people is a "blanket statement".  I had an argument with Max because he kept pressing a point, but he doesn't seem scummy at all so I put him in the town category.

So, uh, how is that different from passive, activelurking Pandarsenic town?
I could swear Pandarsenic normally at least does actions that could theoretically get him into some kind of argument (like, say, voting people and calling them scum).
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Pandarsenic

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 4 - Supernatural creatures hate Barons
« Reply #187 on: August 04, 2011, 03:58:32 pm »

Fuck it. I just woke up and my sleep meds totally didn't work last night, so I'll just say a short post and pray it's coherent.

I'm going to stick to Max White until he replaces his wild flailing with any sort of substantial scumhunting. The obvious intentional misinterpretation reeks of fitting his evidence to the conclusion he wants, and whether he's scum or town, that's not okay. If he's scum, he won't have a better alternative; if he's town, he will.

I won't say I'm sure he's scum. I'm not. I will say it's a lot more bloody likely than most other people I'm looking at.
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Toaster

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 4 - Supernatural creatures hate Barons
« Reply #188 on: August 04, 2011, 08:50:21 pm »

Kilakan:
Also  fyi I can't respond to Max's replies at the moment, I'm at work.  I'll be home in 8 hours or so.

I'll be interested in seeing that... especially since we're past 8 hours.


Pandar:  I'd like to see some more content out of you.  If you need ideas, how about your opinions of Kilakan, Josh, and Jim?
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Jim Groovester

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 4 - Supernatural creatures hate Barons
« Reply #189 on: August 04, 2011, 09:15:41 pm »

Solifuge: Where'd you run off to, dude? Where's that content you promised? Where's your explanation for your crappy vote on kilakan? I've got all these questions I want to ask you and you're not here.

Vector: I'd ask you the same question I asked Solifuge, but it's clear where you've run off to: Everywhere else on the forum that isn't here. Could ye spare a few minutes for a poor, neglected mafia game?

jakeread1: Don't tell me you're turned off to the game of mafia already? Because it sure looks like you're not playing anymore.
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Vector

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 4 - Supernatural creatures hate Barons
« Reply #190 on: August 04, 2011, 09:29:42 pm »

Yeah, sorry.  I have three rereads/attacks/WoTs/whatever to write today, finished one, and went and worked for a while before I discovered that I needed dinner.  It's slated for tonight.
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kilakan

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 4 - Supernatural creatures hate Barons
« Reply #191 on: August 04, 2011, 10:08:11 pm »

Jim: Always a pleasure! You know, I think I find your style of play the most entertaining to watch, glad to see you in this game. So, not much info given about each of the roles... How do you feel about that?
I have never played this game type before, as such I'm not exactly sure how everything works, and I'm totally in the dark about what scum we are facing. I don't know about you, but this worries me. Jim answeres honestly even when he is scum, from what I have seen, so asking him if this is something to be worried about was a safe way to get some hints on how to handle this, and boy did I get a useful reply!
The limited town role information isn't as much of an obstacle as it would have been if this were the first Supernatural Mafia, because there are previous games to look at and the town roles, as far as I know, haven't changed between them.

The problem is that the scum roles are still mostly unknown. So far there's been two rounds of Verevolves (1 and RP) and they act like a pretty standard scum team, with special verevolf roles to help them. There's been a Cult (2), and I don't quite remember how dangerous they were. And then there's been one round of Vampires (3), and they were viciously dangerous because they were a cult (in functionality, not name), and also because I was the Vampire Lord and converted Toaster who was a SK on Night 1.

What the makeup of the scumteam is drastically affects how dangerous they are, and unfortunately, there's no way for us to know how dangerous it is until Night 1, when we find out what the flavor of the kill is. This still doesn't tell us how many scum there are, and there's always the possibility of dangerous third parties.

Doing an excellent job of scumhunting is generally the best course of action, and especially so in this game.
To me, at least, this was a wealth of useful tips. I dare say this question was very well justified.
See I don't see how you getting a 'wealth of useful tips' as an opening question, a good question.  You aren't pressuring him at all, just asking how to play this type of game.  It doesn't tell you anything about him, or any hint as to his alignment.  Heck it doesn't even tell you how to expect him to act, just that the little known about the roles can be overcome by reading previous games.
Vector: Good morning! I don't think I have ever asked you, do you enjoy playing as scum, or town more? Do you like to hunt or be hunted?
Vectors play tends to change depending on her mood. I wanted to know a little more about the relation there. Knowing how she feels playing as town and scum is handy .
Exactly her play style changes depending on her mood you already know that, so a question like this just tells you how she would react as she is feeling at the moment she answers the question.  How she feels to me seems that it wouldn't have much help to you, unless you also know her well enough to tell how she reacts when she is feeling that way.  After she told you what she prefers (which according to her is equally over time) you didn't follow up, push it, give a secondary question, nothing!  Frankly a BAD question is one that you can't ask a second question about the answer, coupled with the fact that what she gave you was entirely situational while keeping you from knowing the situation since you didn't ask particulars, it was crap.  It told you nothing useful and even when you could get something useful by pushing it you decided to completely ignore it.  Instead you rolled on to Joshua, looks to me like you were swinging for an easy lynch.
Dariush: And here we are again. Did you learn anything from roguelike 2?
Just wondering if he was going to try to learn from past mistakes. Turns out the answer was no. Sort of disappointing, but it means we can expect the same level of useless town for games to come.
Fine, I suppose you can use this to call him on some things since it means he will act the same way as previous games.  Not a bad question, mostly cause you got a rather suspicious answer.
CrownOfFire: Hello! Hmm, have I seen you play before? Are you a good player or a new one?
We both know a new player plays differently from an old one. Knowing what one he I am dealing with helps, as you no doubt know by now. Just because you made the mistake of attacking a newbie for newbie tells dosn't mean we all want to.
Rather snarky response boy-o.  I don't see how you knowing he is rather new could be classified as a good opening question, it doesn't pressure, attack or anything.  It's just making talk for the sake of talk.
Pandar: Panda? Pandar? Do you prefer with or without the r? Well, either way, who makes for a better lynch, somebody who seems a little scummy but there is nobody more clearly scum, or the guy that has been lurking all day?
Well firstly now I know what he likes to be called, but that wasn't the important part. I wanted to know a little about he's priorties when it came to lynches. How is that not useful?
It's useful if you are scum, so you know how to act to not draw his attention.  Don't see how it would be useful to a town player.
jakeread1: First game... Well ok! How do you best plan to learn?
This was just a soft question to pull him into the game. Just as Josh said, when nobody is asking you questions you feel a little like an outsider, so I thought this would make for a nice welcome.
Fine nice decent active-lurking question.  Very sweet and kind and completely pointless other then making him feel welcome by you.
All I see in this is just a causal question to get someone possibly talking a bit, not to much unlike your own.  What makes this such a crap question when yours are so good?
What would we ever expect from this sort of question beyond 'I don't have a scum buddy because I am not scum'? Well I don't know, so I asked him what he expected to get. Turns out he didn't know either, he was just trying to be Webba. I said I thought it was crap, and asked him to explain why it wasn't, rather than asserting that it was crap.
Fine enough, though a random question like that could still encore a small slip, potentially from a scum partner who jumps in and goes what the fuck is this shit.
Interesting what he says about your opening questions here.
Is it? Tell me why? What did he say about my opening questions and why is it interesting Kilakan?
And then goes on to say that your questions are fine.  Now in between these he does say that he was using it to judge your defensiveness, but frankly it didn't hit you as odd that he would go back and complement you after saying that your questions were buddying.  It's also odd that when you ask if he meant the statements were buddying he says yes but you don't bother saying anything about that.
Oh, do you mean him saying my opening questions were buddying is interesting to you? Maybe you should read the thread.
Max:
Max:  Why do you open RVS with buddying questions?
Wait, were the questions buddying, or the statements that went before them? I mean I come here to have fun, so I would rather be nice and sociable to the others playing, even if I am willing to hang their scummy ass, so the opening statements were friendly because I like a friendly game full of backstabbing.
Although if your sure it is the questions your talking about, I don't see it, could you clarify?

Yes, I meant the statements.  Since you've done it as town, I see it as a null tell.  Mostly I was looking for defensiveness.  I'd say you're lightly defensive- enough to note, but not enough to hang.
You see Kilakan, he didn't think my opening questions were buddying at all. There was no contradiction, but you would know that if you were paying attention.
Ha, so you think that just because he said oh wait no the statements, when you asked him if he meant the statements wasn't just him trying to say what he thought you would accept?  It's a contradiction because he changes what he said, he started saying 'questions and then changed to oh no not the questions, I meant the statement.'  He flip-flops on what he means.  Maybe you should pay a little more attention and stop just thinking what you want to think.

Kilakan:
Also  fyi I can't respond to Max's replies at the moment, I'm at work.  I'll be home in 8 hours or so.

I'll be interested in seeing that... especially since we're past 8 hours.
I said I get home in 8 hours, didn't mean I was gonna post the second I walk in the door after a 12 hours day.

Before that he was already getting a bit touchy about the subject of questions, but has yet to actually say that 'he' thinks they are good.

Why is this relevant?
It's a transition, from trying to be cool, to becoming incredibly solid and defensive on the subject of his questions.
Before that he is saying that he always gets told his questions are useless and shrugs it off.

Okay. What do you think about it?
I think that at that point he was attempting to maintain his composure on a touchy subject, and arguing that point would make him lose that composure so he let it slide.
MaxWhite-Tell us what merits you think there are in each particular question that make them 'good'.

This is, for the most part, directly derived from Leafsnail's argument. Noted.

What makes Leafsnail's point voteworthy for you? Mind providing some reasons of your own as to why the questions are bad?
See I don't really think they are overly bad or really good.  In my opinion they are middle road, and I wanted to hear from Max what he wanted from each question.  Judging by the fact that he only pursued the crownofFire line of questions tells me that he didn't expect all that much from them.  At least he didn't plan on having second questions to each of them.  So since he didn't put enough thought into the questions to actually be able to push more then one of them, I'd say the questions were not all that good and mainly to make it look like he was very active right at the start.
Max:  Why do you open RVS with buddying questions?
Wait, were the questions buddying, or the statements that went before them? I mean I come here to have fun, so I would rather be nice and sociable to the others playing, even if I am willing to hang their scummy ass, so the opening statements were friendly because I like a friendly game full of backstabbing.
Although if your sure it is the questions your talking about, I don't see it, could you clarify?
Interesting what he says about your opening questions here.

Max:  Your questions were fine this time IMO.  I think your style puts people off (this is a game of suspicion, lying, and distrust, not hugs and friendship) and draws attention.
Well that is a breakthrough! I don’t see why I can’t be all hugs and smiles and still suspect people. But still, now that we have a second opinion.
And then goes on to say that your questions are fine.  Now in between these he does say that he was using it to judge your defensiveness, but frankly it didn't hit you as odd that he would go back and complement you after saying that your questions were buddying.  It's also odd that when you ask if he meant the statements were buddying he says yes but you don't bother saying anything about that.

This is pretty incoherent. Could you clean it up for me a tad?
Basically I was saying that toaster changes what he said to match what he though Max would like to hear.  Though he still says that Max is buddying but when Max hears that it wasn't his questions that were the problem, he just ignores the buddying part.




Ok so I think that is everything.  And I gotta go to bed, I fucking hate long shift days.
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Vector

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 4 - Supernatural creatures hate Barons
« Reply #192 on: August 05, 2011, 12:43:42 am »

Nguh.

I'm going to say that I think Max White is town because he tends to do this thing where he's bending people's words and just cannot understand what the hell he's doing wrong as that alignment.  He doesn't really know how to scumhunt and gets over-excited about little, trumped up causes.

I don't know what else is going on in this game at the moment, but I feel good about Leafsnail.  Vote's staying on Solifuge until he gets back here and his usual bizarro self; I don't trust my read on him.  Questions pending for an hour when I'm not about to fall asleep on my face.
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Dariush

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 4 - Supernatural creatures hate Barons
« Reply #193 on: August 05, 2011, 03:00:42 am »

How are any of these things decent scumtells to you?
By themselves, they are pretty weak, I agree. However, when taken together (and the lack of almost any activity is added), plain activelurking is revealed.

I don't see how saying my reads on specific people is a "blanket statement".
You didn't specify why exactly you thought them scum or town. It is blanket because you could name any people at random without stating the concrete reasons, and that is why it is suspicious.

Jim Groovester

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 4 - Supernatural creatures hate Barons
« Reply #194 on: August 05, 2011, 03:28:53 am »

Toaster: I noticed that Max White was in the lead for votes, and then you changed your vote to kilakan. What prompted that change of vote?

I also find the reason you're voting for kilakan weak, since he's pretty vitriolic and risible in general. I don't think that him reacting to Solifuge's vote like that is out of the ordinary at all.

Swapping your vote from the person who's ahead to somebody else with weak justification looks awfully suspicious.

While I'm at it, what's your read on Solifuge? What about Max White?

Meanwhile, voting Pandarsenic for pressure has done jack shit (just like Pandarsenic!), so I'm going to unvote Pandarsenic and vote Solifuge. In short, the reasons for his vote are flawed and he borrows Max White's language against kilakan verbatim (which is also flawed). And he hasn't come back to answer my questions, so, whatever. I'm cool with him hanging.
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