Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Dwarven science: which weapon is best?  (Read 5959 times)

minno

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Dwarven science: which weapon is best?
« on: July 23, 2011, 10:06:10 pm »

I'm currently running a large series of experiments to see which of these four weapons is best:  iron short sword, iron spear, silver war hammer, or iron battle axe.  My setup is to have 460 5x6 rooms, with two combatants in each.  Each dwarf is a grand master at everything, and has a weapon, an iron shield, and (in some trials) armor.

I have three sets:  no armor, partial armor, and full armor.  Partial armor means (iron) helm and breastplate, and full armor is helm, breastplate, greaves, mail shirt, high boot x2, and gauntlet x2.  I'm open to suggestions for the partial armor set, since I haven't done that trial yet.

Screenshots of my first trial:  Before After

My results:  (I'll add more as I go along)  (format:  weapon vs weapon:  [survivor number] weapon1, [survivor number] weapon2)

No armor:
swords vs spears:  249 swords, 211 spears
swords vs hammers:  250 swords, 210 hammers
swords vs axes:  254 swords, 205 axes (apparently, there was one pair that both died)
spears vs hammers:  221 spears, 238 hammers
spears vs axes:  232 spears, 223 axes (5 pairs that both died)
hammers vs axes:  243 hammers, 215 axes
Comments:  My expectation was axes>swords>spears>hammers.  Instead, it appears that the order is swords>hammers>spears>axes.  It seems strange that axes aren't very effective against unarmored enemies.

Partial armor:
swords vs spears:
swords vs hammers:
swords vs axes:
spears vs hammers:
spears vs axes:
hammers vs axes:

Full armor:
swords vs spears:  101 swords, 359 spears
swords vs hammers:  43 swords, 417 hammers (Most of the swordsdwarves killed with blunt trauma.  Most of the sword victories took a very long time, long enough that in a full battle, the hammerdwarf's allies would have come to help out.)
swords vs axes:  291 swords, 168 axes (this took a while, neither could easily get through armor)
spears vs hammers:  124 spears, 336 hammers
spears vs axes:  391 spears, 69 axes
hammers vs axes:
Comments:  I'm expecting hammers>spears>axes>swords for this one.  I'm expecting slashing weapons to be ineffective, since the AI ignores armor when it chooses where to attack, and almost always tries to use its weapon.  I'll probably get pages of weapons glancing off helms before I get kills.

Conclusion:  axes suck.  Don't use axes.  Swords are best against unarmored opponents, but suck against armored opponents.  Hammers can kill anything.  Spears are OK at killing everything, and can kill large enemies much more easily than hammers can.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 08:46:17 pm by minno »
Logged

Corneria

  • Bay Watcher
  • [TORTURE_FOR_FUN:ACCEPTABLE][TRESPASSING:SHUN]
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven science: which weapon is best?
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2011, 12:50:08 am »

Why not just iron across the board? Silver is the best non-mood metal for blunt weapons, where as iron is pretty average for edged and above average for blunt.
Logged
Oh yeah: Nazis.  Now I lost the argument.  So you can't argue with me anymore.  Nyah.

minno

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven science: which weapon is best?
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2011, 01:12:10 am »

I'm using the best metal that is easily obtainable in adventure mode.  Silver is best for blunt weapons, and (based on previous testing that I did) iron is best for edged weapons, excluding steel and adamantine.
Logged

Putnam

  • Bay Watcher
  • DAT WIZARD
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven science: which weapon is best?
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2011, 02:07:46 am »

You can start with steel if you're a dwarf.

minno

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven science: which weapon is best?
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2011, 10:17:45 am »

You can start with steel if you're a dwarf.

I know that, but steel weapons are very rare.  You can very occasionally find them in lairs, and you sometimes start with them if you start as a dwarf, but it's currently impossible to find them in shops or in human-dominated areas.

Also, I'm pretty sure that steel weapon - steel armor will have about the same results as iron weapon - iron armor.
Logged

Corneria

  • Bay Watcher
  • [TORTURE_FOR_FUN:ACCEPTABLE][TRESPASSING:SHUN]
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven science: which weapon is best?
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2011, 03:25:39 pm »

You can start with steel if you're a dwarf.

I know that, but steel weapons are very rare.  You can very occasionally find them in lairs, and you sometimes start with them if you start as a dwarf, but it's currently impossible to find them in shops or in human-dominated areas.

Also, I'm pretty sure that steel weapon - steel armor will have about the same results as iron weapon - iron armor.
No. Steel is vastly superior to iron. Density is the only thing they have in common.
http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Metal#Weapon_.26_Armor_Quality
Logged
Oh yeah: Nazis.  Now I lost the argument.  So you can't argue with me anymore.  Nyah.

minno

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven science: which weapon is best?
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2011, 07:33:12 pm »

You can start with steel if you're a dwarf.

I know that, but steel weapons are very rare.  You can very occasionally find them in lairs, and you sometimes start with them if you start as a dwarf, but it's currently impossible to find them in shops or in human-dominated areas.

Also, I'm pretty sure that steel weapon - steel armor will have about the same results as iron weapon - iron armor.
No. Steel is vastly superior to iron. Density is the only thing they have in common.
http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Metal#Weapon_.26_Armor_Quality

I'm saying that there won't be a significant difference between steel weapons against steel armor and iron weapons against iron armor.  I know that iron weapons barely scratch steel armor and steel weapons cut through iron armor, but same-metal match ups should be approximately the same.

In the unarmored tests, steel slashing weapons will be much better, so axes and swords will move up the list.  Stabbing weapons won't be much different, since they penetrate deeply into flesh no matter what.  So, if you're stuck with iron, don't use axes, but if you have steel, they'll be much better.
Logged

Nil Eyeglazed

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven science: which weapon is best?
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2011, 02:18:59 am »

This is good adventurer research, but I think you might find things change when you look at outnumbered opponents or creatures that don't suffer pain.  I don't think the hammers are going to do as well in those circumstances.  I'm also curious about how creature size affects things.  (i hope you're adventurers aren't engaged in a genocidal war on dwarves :) )

Have you thought about testing whips?  Looks like you have a real good setup for testing there-- are you using a macro or something to create the dwarves?
Logged
He he he.  Yeah, it almost looks done...  alas...  those who are in your teens, hold on until your twenties...  those in your twenties, your thirties...  others, cling to life as you are able...<P>It should be pretty fun though.

Shook

  • Bay Watcher
  • ◦ ◡ ◦
    • View Profile
    • DeviantArt page
Re: Dwarven science: which weapon is best?
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2011, 07:24:36 am »

Clearly, axes suck because they're dorfy. This makes them harder to use properly, and harder to use is dorfier, right? (else i need an update)
Still, great research, relevant to the interests of many. I still favor axes though. :P (LIMBS GO FLYING)
Logged
Twitter i guess
also deviantART page
Quote from: Girlinhat
It may be worthwhile to have the babies fall into ring of fortifications or windows, to prevent anyone from catching and saving them.
Quote
[01:27] <Octomobile> MMM THATS GOOD FIST BUTTER

Cropher

  • Escaped Lunatic
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven science: which weapon is best?
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2011, 09:31:52 am »

I think this is really great!

Finally some hard facts about this topic (I don't think this was done before, was it?). It would be so cool if you continued the tests (partial armor, maybe certain races/enemy types?).

Nice job!

EDIT: Oh, and whips, of course! I'm really curious how they would perform.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 09:43:53 am by Cropher »
Logged

Nighthawk

  • Bay Watcher
  • INT Score: Yes
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven science: which weapon is best?
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2011, 12:00:25 pm »

Clearly, axes suck because they're dorfy. This makes them harder to use properly, and harder to use is dorfier, right? (else i need an update)
Still, great research, relevant to the interests of many. I still favor axes though. :P (LIMBS GO FLYING)
Let us not forget this.

In the hands of a skilled dorf, every successful strike with an axe is ten times as deadly as those with a sword or spear.

Definitely dorfier.
Logged

Putnam

  • Bay Watcher
  • DAT WIZARD
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven science: which weapon is best?
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2011, 07:09:08 pm »

I think this is really great!

Finally some hard facts about this topic (I don't think this was done before, was it?). It would be so cool if you continued the tests (partial armor, maybe certain races/enemy types?).

Nice job!

EDIT: Oh, and whips, of course! I'm really curious how they would perform.

Whips chip bones, which causes immense pain, which causes passing out, which causes headshots, which causes brain bruising.

They're pretty good.

Knarfle

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven science: which weapon is best?
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2011, 05:54:17 am »

What about Halberds? Aren't they a spear/axe hybrid? They're my personal fave.
Logged
What do you get when a Rhesus monkey steps on a weapons trap loaded with maximum adamantine blades?

Rhesus Pieces!

Karakzon

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ethics:give a shit?: denied]
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven science: which weapon is best?
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2011, 06:07:18 am »

Put in Minning picks if you get bored :)
Logged
I am Dyslexic. No its not going to change any time soon.
Bolts of Exsanguination THE terrifying glacier export, get yours today!

Lemunde

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven science: which weapon is best?
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2011, 09:56:33 am »

I'd be interested in seeing tests done with leather and shell armor. Also did you include shields in any of those tests?
Logged
Pages: [1] 2