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[TotalPigeon]

To be honest, I don't think we actually have mods other than Toady and Threetow, and I haven't ever seen either of them lock a thread...
I think the game looks pretty cool, I'd definitely check some reviews if I had a PSP

[Raerlynn]

No Mechanoid, that's the "I'm going to prejudge it because I'm a fucking snob" attitude. Hell, this game hasn't even been RELEASED yet and you're bitching about this.

Seriously, how much patience would you have for some that took one look at DF and said "Man this game must suck, there's not even graphics! Just fucking ASCII. Man this sucks."

You're doing the same thing; judging based on appearance and not on actual playstyle. Someone thought this was relevant and cool. No need to shit all over his parade.

[Veroule]

All humans need to leanr a very simple concept here.  The other game is always more interesting to someone.  Just everyone take a step back.  You don't like one aspect of a game that is nice, other people like that aspect.  No one ever finds a perfect game for them.  Simply because a game either ends in a win condition, or it drags on until the player feels they have had enough.  A win condition tends to result in players leaving the game because they have already beaten it.  Dragging on just gets boring enough that a player will find another game.  So there is no perfect game.

Just mature a little and understand that life is also a game, and it is generally more interesting for all of the players when a new time wasting thought is developed.  It doesn't matter if it is a mixture of the same ingredients used a thousand times before.  Angel food cake and sugar cookies aren't the same either, but they are made with all the same ingredients.

There is no point in debating the merits of the game since it is a matter of oppinion.  As the saying goes, "Oppinions are like assholes, we all have one."

[Slartibartfast]

quote:Originally posted by Veroule:
<STRONG>There is no point in debating the merits of the game since it is a matter of oppinion.  As the saying goes, "Oppinions are like assholes, we all have one."</STRONG>

So if we have different opinions then there's no point for debate?
Wow, so the last few thousands of years of philosophycal debate were pointless then, huh?
You're right, lets throw away all fruits of philosophycal debate, like democracy and human rights.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Debating about human rights? If you'd like to question yours, maybe. Only you define them for yourself.

Debating about the quality of the game? What's the point, the game will remain what it is, and everyone will perceive it in their own way.

In other words, you can and should debate about things subject to change. You can't debate about things that are both largely impossible for you to change, and are quite clearly what they are. You can't debate about the shape of the Earth - it's been quite clearly proven that it is a spheroid, and trying to prove otherwise is pointless. You can, however debate about the shape of the Galaxy - it's too large for us to see it whole, and with the intertwining side effects of light speed it's quite impossible to clearly see it, so any point of view is valid, as long as it corresponds to observation.

Right now, this game is quite clearly what it is, and will not be subject to change. Debating will not change it, but your point of view is as valid as anyone else's. Once the game is out and we all see it, we can determine the truth, and debating will be pointless.
Kinda works against the logic, I know, and against the real way things go, but true, in my opinion. Of course, the real truth here is subject to debate.  

[Slartibartfast]

quote:Originally posted by Sean Mirrsen:
<STRONG>Debating about human rights? If you'd like to question yours, maybe. Only you define them for yourself.</STRONG>

So that means I don't have to report violations of human rights?
Also, I can decide that I have the right to kill everyone else?

quote:Originally posted by Sean Mirrsen:
<STRONG>Debating about the quality of the game? What's the point, the game will remain what it is, and everyone will perceive it in their own way.
In other words, you can and should debate about things subject to change. You can't debate about things that are both largely impossible for you to change, and are quite clearly what they are. You can't debate about the shape of the Earth - it's been quite clearly proven that it is a spheroid, and trying to prove otherwise is pointless. You can, however debate about the shape of the Galaxy - it's too large for us to see it whole, and with the intertwining side effects of light speed it's quite impossible to clearly see it, so any point of view is valid, as long as it corresponds to observation.

Right now, this game is quite clearly what it is, and will not be subject to change. Debating will not change it, but your point of view is as valid as anyone else's. Once the game is out and we all see it, we can determine the truth, and debating will be pointless.</STRONG>

Debate on things that aren't subject to change is also important, because:
1) Things might be subject to change without us knowing it. At first everyone knew the earth was flat, there was no question about it. Now everyone knows the earth is spherical.
2) Unexpected results could come from such debate, it was the question of soul and self (both unchangeable) that lead to the rennaisance.
3) A debate has merits beyond changing that which is debated, such as honing your intellect and logic, as well as just being fun.

quote:Originally posted by Sean Mirrsen:
<STRONG>Kinda works against the logic, I know, and against the real way things go, but true, in my opinion. Of course, the real truth here is subject to debate.   </STRONG>

But reality isn't going to change, so what is the point in debating it?  :p

[Veroule]

quote:1) Things might be subject to change without us knowing it. At first everyone knew the earth was flat, there was no question about it. Now everyone knows the earth is spherical.

That is actually a misconception propogated by an English author in the 1920's.  Everyone always knew the earth was roundish.  In fact its diameter was calculated by Copernicus long before the Roman Empire existed.  Also the same idiot that created that silly story about people thinking the earth was flat was telling a story about sailors going west to find a shorter route to someplace they already how to get to by going east.  Quite amusing how stupid it is that popular culture believes somethings they are told even when all the related fact clearly disprove it.

[subject name here]

quote:Originally posted by Mechanoid:
<STRONG>

[There was a Text-fall trap here, but i found a link to a site that says it better then i can:] http://www.sirlin.net/archive/game-balance-part-1/

[ June 17, 2007: Message edited by: Mechanoid ]</STRONG>

I'm not going to even bother reading that article, so could you just be a dear and tell me what it has to do with Dwarf Fortress, Dungeon Maker, or Disgaea?

[Slartibartfast]

quote:Originally posted by Veroule:
<STRONG>That is actually a misconception propogated by an English author in the 1920's.  Everyone always knew the earth was roundish.  In fact its diameter was calculated by Copernicus long before the Roman Empire existed.  Also the same idiot that created that silly story about people thinking the earth was flat was telling a story about sailors going west to find a shorter route to someplace they already how to get to by going east.  Quite amusing how stupid it is that popular culture believes somethings they are told even when all the related fact clearly disprove it.</STRONG>

I'm not sure its true, but it doesn't matter at all.

Want another exmaple? Try "everyone knew the sun orbited around the earth.", happy now?

[Sean Mirrsen]

Copernicus (or was it some other poor soul?) was quite oppressed for stating othrewise. It wasn't subject to debate back then, other points of view were outlawed. Now, people eventually found proof and knowledge got spread, so now the outlawed truth is the real truth, and it's, again, not subject to debate.  

In fact, you can debate all you want about the structure of an atom or the actual size of the Universe - there's no point in all that because the only truth is the real truth found by measuring and observation, and debates are only to pass time until that happens.

As for human rights, they were created by society, they are not any kind of innate property of a human being. From the point of view of a lion in the wilderness, you're breakfast, and there's no point in debating, his opinion is just as valid as yours. Human rights are merely laws set by the human to guard himself as a species. And they are, in fact, subject to debate. Any soldier on the battlefield will tell you that he doesn't care about the rights of the gunner in that tank across the street, he just needs to blow him to bits.
You could also ask the current US president that question, and get a conspicuosly similar answer regarding certain 3rd world countries..  

[ June 21, 2007: Message edited by: Sean Mirrsen ]

[Toady One]

Wasn't Copernicus a millenium or so after the (Western) Roman Empire?  Do you mean Eratosthenes?  There were others as well, but Copernicus was much later.

People should refrain from insulting each other.  I've locked a thread before, but I think it was worse than this.  This is still a discussion, I guess.

[Sean Mirrsen]

At most, I'm trying to insult the president of the United States, and he's not here.  

I'm just trying to prove, through argumented debate, that argumented debate is pointless without direct observaton. Seeing as we're getting nowhere, my point gets proved.  

Also, it's exactly why in most russian forums, mods lock threads discussing unreleased games.  

[ June 21, 2007: Message edited by: Sean Mirrsen ]

[slMagnvox]

In soviet russia, unreleased game discusses you

[Veroule]

I sit corrected.  Copernicus was in fact later.  I was thinking of the Greek guy from much before that.  I also forget the name of the Greek demigod that held the world on his shoulders, and seem to recall a statue that dates to well before the Roman empire depicting that demigod with a globe held on his back.

Anyhow my point was pretty much that debate while fun is generally pointless.  I will of course be happy to debate that all day, since it is fun.

[Sean Mirrsen]

quote:Originally posted by slMagnvox:
<STRONG>In soviet russia, unreleased game discusses you</STRONG>

Surprisingly, that is, from a certain point, true for all countries, seeing as the creators of the game discuss its inner working according to the info they have on the end users, the players. So, in a sense, an unreleased game discusses us.