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[Lysabild]

So please, provide documentation indicating that Muslims are the cause of the majority of problems in Denmark.

Otherwise, I will refer back to "people turning to ethnic minorities as scapegoats".

What sources do you want? I know a working african muslim working woman who can tell she has been mocked for working by other muslim women when she could just drop working and get children living the fat life.

I have gone with them, as already mentioned, in gangs. I talk to them, I follow the news in my country. Even if I could find sources, they wouldn't be in english. But about 10% of Denmark is immigrants, 67% of them are non-western. Danish Source: http://www.nyidanmark.dk/da-dk/spoergsmaal_og_svar/indvandrere_og_efterkommere/indvandrere_og_efterkommere.htm

About 50% of those are taking an education, and education here is free.

In 2004 4% was islamic. Source: http://www.religion.dk/artikel/117924:Spoerg-om-tro-og-viden--Statistik-over-religioest-tilhoersforhold-i-Danmark

The problems are acknowledged by all, but all your hearing is that I'm saying there is a problem, I believe the way to solve it is to make integration possible, but what you're doing is telling me, from across the Atlantic, that the problem doesn't exist I'm just racist.

For an example I didn't say they were the cause of the majority of problems, I said the majority of problems with immigrants are Muslim people. Most likely because they come from the poorest areas and need the most help.

Well, I am an Arab Catholic (said it before) and while I stand up for Muslims I can't say I agree with Denmark's Laws, to have a happy society people must integrate and assimilate. If someone criticizes you for being a Welfare leach they can't be and shouldn't be considered racist. So I believe there must be firmer action towards (any)immigrants in any (any)countries. Not treat them like aliens, but firmly stand by integration. The problem I see mostly is that in places like Denmark or Norway or whatever that they're anti-Islam, calling Islam a bad religion and cult and whatnot, but not tackling the issue of poor immigration laws.

Which laws of Denmark don't you agree with? Sadly I find a few of your sentences hard to understand, could you perhaps rewrite it? Because I value your opinion highly. I did understand some though and will respond that what I understand is that I agree except, Denmark isn't Anti-Islam or calling Islam a bad religion or cult. We're not tackling the problems however.

One must see things from our side as well, One man made some cartoons, one place published them, and suddenly tons of countries Threaten To Kill Danish People at random, and Danes died, because of cartoons. Many Danes have their irrational hate from here.

Half of Denmark is red, the other half blue, about 15% votes for the Nationalists. However, even though the Nationalists only have 15 votes, the Blue Government can't stay in power without their support, so get be allowed to make the rich richer and the poor poorer, they have to appease the Nationalist with idiotic very borderline laws.

Hopefully next election the red wins again, so we can have some more humanity, but until then, all I can remind people is that, saying Denmark is racist is like saying the moon is always dark.

[Hiiri]

'scuse me, the topic seems to have moved on.. but this was taunting for a response...

It's pure mathematics. Murder + murder = two murders. Murder + no murder = Murder. No murder + no murder = No murder.

This is rather dishonest. You might as well say 1 Apple + 1 Orange = 2 Apples. Both might be fruit, but don't confuse one for the other.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

What you should have said is: "apple + apple painted orange with a smiley face on it = one apple and one happy orange"

It's still an apple, even if you put a little pink dress and some make-up on it. Whatever you dress it as, it's still an apple, not an orange. The apple might have grown in another tree, but it's still an apple.

[Grakelin]

Nobody is saying that Denmark is racist. It is being said that you are racist. This is not necessarily meant to belittle you. You can be a racist without realizing it. Maybe by realizing that Denmark's problems aren't caused by people who want to make a life for themselves there, you'll be able to help solve Denmark's problems.

I'll start with your first sentence. Everybody has a story about their least favourite ethnic minority where a member of that minority decries the sins of the rest of their minority. There are a number of reasons that a person might do this. It might even be a true story. This is not valid evidence that this is the norm, however, nor has it been analyzed thoroughly. Do these women have husbands who work (don't reply with "No! Of course not!" unless you actually know)? Islam is far from the only culture where gender roles are still enforced via ridicule.

I'll assume all your sources are accurate, unless somebody who speaks Danish tells me otherwise. Unfortunately, your description of them coupled with your telling me I can't possibly understand because I live across the Atlantic doesn't hold water for me. Canada has grown due to immigration nearly 25% in the past quarter of a century. We get roughly 250,000 new immigrants each year. 1 in every 120 people in this country moved here this year. Before this, our 300 year history of immigration was largely made up of Europeans from both East and West, and immigrants from different parts of Europe moved to different parts of Canada (Eastern Europeans who arrived in the early 20th century, for example, were pushed to Western Canada and the Prairies to deal with the labour shortage there at the time). This was a homogenized nation which, despite being known internationally as being multicultural, has a xenophobic history and has only really opened its doors recently (and not even to the extent people think - many of our nation-born citizens could not pass the citizenship test. Not because they're stupid, but because the test is stiflingly difficult). Part of the reason Canada's immigration rate is so high is because it opens its arms to a large number of refugees. Theoretically, Canada should be a burning, bubbling, boiling cesspool of crime, yet there are no studies which indicate that it is.

People do try to blame Canada's problems on immigrants, and the fashionable target in Southwest Ontario is Asians. Why? Because a lot of Asians have moved here. I imagine the reason Arabs seem to be a target in Denmark is because there are a lot of them immigrating there.


You also pointed out that "67%" of the immigrants to Denmark are "non-western". This figure does, indeed, shock me. Because it is so low. People generally immigrate out of places that are no longer favorable and go towards the power centres of the world, such as Western Europe and North America. It is less common for them to do the opposite. I would think it is also uncommon for the wealthy in Western society to immigrate to a place where they will be taxed more than if they stayed where they were.

My first guess as to why 33% of your immigrants are from the West would be that there are some sort of job openings there. Is Denmark opening its doors to foreign nationals seeking work?

[Lysabild]

Nobody is saying that Denmark is racist. It is being said that you are racist. This is not necessarily meant to belittle you. You can be a racist without realizing it. Maybe by realizing that Denmark's problems aren't caused by people who want to make a life for themselves there, you'll be able to help solve Denmark's problems.

I am not racist for acknowledging that Muslim people have trouble integrating and thinking that we should accomodate this. I am not blaming them for our problems, I'm saying that they are causing some.

I'll start with your first sentence. Everybody has a story about their least favourite ethnic minority where a member of that minority decries the sins of the rest of their minority. There are a number of reasons that a person might do this. It might even be a true story. This is not valid evidence that this is the norm, however, nor has it been analyzed thoroughly. Do these women have husbands who work (don't reply with "No! Of course not!" unless you actually know)? Islam is far from the only culture where gender roles are still enforced via ridicule.

The norm or not, it is spread by themselves by bitter fellow muslims mostly so it's definately a problem, because it makes natives bitter and does no good for the integration we want.
If they have a work, they are not entitled to the money they are getting, and again it is not about blaming Islam, Islam is merely the face of it here.

I'll assume all your sources are accurate, unless somebody who speaks Danish tells me otherwise. Unfortunately, your description of them coupled with your telling me I can't possibly understand because I live across the Atlantic doesn't hold water for me. Canada has grown due to immigration nearly 25% in the past quarter of a century. We get roughly 250,000 new immigrants each year. 1 in every 120 people in this country moved here this year. Before this, our 300 year history of immigration was largely made up of Europeans from both East and West, and immigrants from different parts of Europe moved to different parts of Canada (Eastern Europeans who arrived in the early 20th century, for example, were pushed to Western Canada and the Prairies to deal with the labour shortage there at the time). This was a homogenized nation which, despite being known internationally as being multicultural, has a xenophobic history and has only really opened its doors recently (and not even to the extent people think - many of our nation-born citizens could not pass the citizenship test. Not because they're stupid, but because the test is stiflingly difficult). Part of the reason Canada's immigration rate is so high is because it opens its arms to a large number of refugees. Theoretically, Canada should be a burning, bubbling, boiling cesspool of crime, yet there are no studies which indicate that it is.

Frenchmen, Dutch, German, Spaniards and English people don't consist homogenized people compared to Danes living in Denmark with the only real minority for 1000 years being Norwegians, tiny amount of Swedes and Germans. The part with the citizenshiptest is a bit funny, I study history in my freetime and still failed it, I think all citizenshiptest is silly somehow. Denmark isn't a "burning, bubbling, boiling cesspool of crime" and neither have I said it was, we have very very little crime, and had even less before we opened the borders. However, I don't belief they do crime because they're muslim or arabic, I belief they do crime because they're poor and meet scorn from the ignorant.

People do try to blame Canada's problems on immigrants, and the fashionable target in Southwest Ontario is Asians. Why? Because a lot of Asians have moved here. I imagine the reason Arabs seem to be a target in Denmark is because there are a lot of them immigrating there.

I am, again, not blaming Arabs for our problems, I'm saying they're a part of some of them.

You also pointed out that "67%" of the immigrants to Denmark are "non-western". This figure does, indeed, shock me. Because it is so low. People generally immigrate out of places that are no longer favorable and go towards the power centres of the world, such as Western Europe and North America. It is less common for them to do the opposite. I would think it is also uncommon for the wealthy in Western society to immigrate to a place where they will be taxed more than if they stayed where they were.

Is Denmark, among top 10 of almost all "How great is X nation in this field?" not among your idea of a Western Europe?

My first guess as to why 33% of your immigrants are from the West would be that there are some sort of job openings there. Is Denmark opening its doors to foreign nationals seeking work?

Denmark has on of the best welfares in the world and so high wages for danes that danish bosses fire danish people and hire polish people. Danes are fine with the poles though and only really pissed at the bosses. Also, you must remember stuff like the schengen treaty and the EU. Denmark is easily one of the best places in the world to live, low crime, free good healthcare, good wages, few people, 4 seasons but no extreme weather, no natural disasters and fairly free with low and unthreatening corruption.

[Phmcw]

Yeah, one important thing to keep in mind, is that Norway, Sweden, Danish, and Netherlands's crime rate are ridiculously low.
And that for someone with really low expectation, it's possible to live off the system (well, by the standards of third world countries), so the very low class of immigrants can think they live well off the system.
Actually it's not a lot of them, and it's lucky because they are an important part of our workforces. Without them, we couldn't fill low wage job and pay for the care of our elders. And of course immigrant classes are ambitious, so it's quite common to find second or third generation among the intelligentsia.

[GlyphGryph]

Denmark has always been a bit xenophobic as a country and had difficulty integrating immigrants. There is a reason they have a reputation as the "most racist country in Europe" in many parts,

When you have a culture that resists outsiders as much as Danish culture does, it is not really a surprise when those outsiders fail to integrate.

[Lysabild]

Denmark has always been a bit xenophobic as a country and had difficulty integrating immigrants. There is a reason they have a reputation as the "most racist country in Europe" in many parts,

When you have a culture that resists outsiders as much as Danish culture does, it is not really a surprise when those outsiders fail to integrate.

It's funny that you say this, because you couldn't be more untrue. France is a billion time more racist, Denmark is just widely known as it and getting raps because the "racist" party is in government and have been for 10 years. We're still one of the less racist places in the world.

[DJ]

I saw what connected these people, who were both pakistani, iraqi, egyptian, bosnian, albanian and so much else, and it was Islam.

Only 48% of Bosnians are Muslims. So yeah, you see what suits you, not what's really there.

[Lysabild]

I saw what connected these people, who were both pakistani, iraqi, egyptian, bosnian, albanian and so much else, and it was Islam.

Only 48% of Bosnians are Muslims.

I know, but instead of spending time informing the thread of that, you should maybe have read what it was I was trying to say.

[DJ]

What I see is stretching facts to suit your arguments. This is the only one I could be sure is patently false, but it implies that your other factoids might be equally false.

[Lysabild]

What I see is stretching facts to suit your arguments. This is the only one I could be sure is patently false, but it implies that your other factoids might be equally false.

How does that even make sense? Here lets get the full quote

I saw a problem, and instead of, as a 16 year old kid, seeing the trouble that caused it, I only saw the problem caused, and then I saw what connected these people, who were both pakistani, iraqi, egyptian, bosnian, albanian and so much else, and it was Islam.

Now, I am saying, that I as a kid experienced a lot of bad things from people who had immigrated to Denmark, and they had these nationalities(and more), spread across, but those with whom I got robbed, threatened and otherwise harmed by, all turned out to be Muslim. As a kid the natural expression for me was to hate Muslims.

I am 20 now, and I'm telling why people are racist and why people feel bad about Islam. I'm saying that this should be mended, because it is wrong to blame all Muslims for something poor and often times desperate people do.

What you're pointing out as "false" is that I should have met Bosnian Muslims as immigrants in my country, because not all of Bosnia is Muslim. What kind of logic is that?

[Africa]

Going back a few pages, I'd love to know what zombat's proposed "civilized" solution to ghettos is, since judging by his other posts I'm willing to bet money it involves ethnic cleansing or just straight up genocide.

[Miggy]

Hello, just barging into the thread with my 2cents about Denmark, being a dane myself.

I agree with Grakelin. The bad eggs that danes see in muslims are simply just islam's bad eggs. We have our own, danish, bad eggs too. Muslims are not the only leeches to the danish society, there are plenty of danes who choose to live off of welfare.

The reason people do blame things like these is because there is some base, however. There are muslims who live purely off of welfare, with no intention to ever stop. But there are also those who choose to get a job and an education.

In another example, a top-news item recently was a border-control deal that DF (the "conservative nuts" in Denmark) managed to slip in as a trade so they would support V's (the right-wing party) economic plan. This border patrol is partially for xenophobiism, but also partially to relieve an actual problem in the southern of Jutland: There is an alarming crime rate where criminals from "eastern europe" (used as a broad term by the media) simply drive in through the open borders, break and enter into whichever houses they can find, then drive right out again. Because these people don't spend much time in Denmark at all, any evidence they may leave behind is as good as useless, so they often get away with it. To people in southern Jutland, it is easy to grow racist towards "them eastern europeans", because they rarely do see or hear the other side of the coin, where they immigrate, intigrate and educate themselves remarkably.

All in all, people in Denmark do at times have reasons to grow racist or xenophobic, because there are actually issues such as integration issues or foreign crime that will, in narrow circumstances, be valid. But these only go in the narrow circumstances, and opening your eyes to the opposite does reveal it exists. One of my best friends in 8. and 9. grade was from croatia. Throughout high-school (gymnasiet) I sometimes shared a class with an immigrant from somewhere in the middle east (I can't remember which country she was from. ) that was genuinely the hardest working person I've met.

I'll say though, all of the "racism" and "xenophibiism" in Denmark is a luxury problem. We really don't have much of what would constitute genuine racism elsewhere. We have little very violence and crime, an because of that also very little race-induced violence and crime. Racism in Denmark is muttering around the dinner table, not violence and spin on the news. Despite perhaps being the most racist country in europe, and certainly in northern europe, we do allow immigrants from less developed countries to come and settle, and we do give them a host of benefits. If they behave.

[Lysabild]

Again, compared to how Immigrants are treated in most of Europe, we're angels. (If I'm to trust most media that is.) But apart from that, you're basicly saying the same things as I am Miggy.

I was trying to say from a scandinavian point of view that there IS problems here, and many people experience them strongly in a otherwise extremely safe and vanilla everyday, which causes some natural bad reactions, which we must work to eradicate through integration and education.

People just refuse to read what I write and assume I'm racist and derails it further to try and prove I'm a bad man. ;_;

[noah22223]

Aye guys, sorry bout that Incredibly insensitive thing I said a week ago.
To be honest, It probably wasn't in my best interests to drink 3 bottles of Hieneken and then get on Bay12.
Either way, sorry. That has to be the worst, most terrible thing I have ever said.